Mailing List Archive: Gentoo: Desktop

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

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reavertm at gmail

Oct 24, 2009, 7:39 AM

Post #1 of 4 (765 views)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

On Saturday 24 of October 2009 16:00:03 Jeremy Olexa wrote:

> Just so it is clear and there aren't any questions in the future. The
> XFCE team maintains a set of recommended global use flags in our docs[1]
> (maintained by Josh (nightmorph)). So, whatever direction this ends up,
> xfce will not be going down that same road.

Well, if XFCE 'satisfying use deps' USE flags are not excessive, I think they
could stay in desktop (parent) profile of course as desktop profile is meant
for general use desktop. This would address some parts of Nirbheek's concern.

> Additionally, One cool thing about Gentoo is that you *can* have more
> than one DE installed. We don't have things like KGentoo =P I hope this
> profile thing doesn't make it harder for end users to use GNOME and KDE
> at the same time.

That's the 'edge' case we encounter. Of course splitting desktop profile
*will* make it harder for them to have GNOME and KDE at the same time. But, to
be clear, we're talking here mainly about default USE flags (not gnome-base/*
entries in package.mask in KDE subprofile... hmm, jmbsvicetto? worth
considering... ;) )
Splitting profiles is to provide out of the box desktop specific solutions
(because that's what majority uses afaik, though I don't have any poll to back
my words), not to prevent anyone from mixing things - those may just need the
same package.use/make.conf effort to set it up (mainly to satisfy USE deps, as
one can put recommended USE flags in +EAPI-1 IUSE in desktop environment
ebuilds after all).

--
regards
MM

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reavertm at gmail

Oct 26, 2009, 1:40 PM

Post #2 of 4 (728 views)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME [In reply to]

On Monday 26 of October 2009 21:06:04 Rémi Cardona wrote:

> IMHO, we shouldn't even have desktop/server subprofiles to begin with.

> I've always considered Gentoo to be an "opt-in" distro where after a
> successful install, you end up with a bash prompt and a _means_ of
> installing new packages.

> Finding out what USE flags mean and do is part of the Gentoo experience.
> If we were doing spin-off distros like Ubuntu and Fedora do, then
> subprofiles would be fine, but we're not.

> So with my X hat on, I won't be adding any "X" subprofile.

> And with my (former?) Gnome hat on, I vote against any "gnome" subprofile.

I most cases I agree with you. To be more specific - desktop profile should be
annihilated because it's a joke. It's impractical and bloated.
Splitting it to "kde" and "gnome" is just nicer way of annihilating it.
However, considering amount of confused users on IRC and forums, especially
after KDE4 stabilization and Qt4 default USE flags change, and considering no
automatic USE flags management provided by portage (for example via --
interactive mode) - there's no way to make it easier to use.

Making something "easier to use" does not necessarily need to mean "less
flexible". It we're to provide mostly learning experience and not practical
solutions, why not rename Gentoo to Eduentoo :)

And I fail to see *any* point in forcing users to learn Gentoo internals (sic!
like USE flags). What else? Ebuild syntax so that they're able to get to know
what particular global USE flag is responsible for, when someone forgot (or
decided not to) describe it in metadata.xml even when semantics is different?
Maybe I sound too harsh here, but that's because I'm not ideologist - I'm
practical man.

--
regards
MM

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sebastian at darkmetatron

Oct 26, 2009, 2:16 PM

Post #3 of 4 (727 views)
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Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME [In reply to]

Am 26.10.2009 21:40, schrieb Maciej Mrozowski:

> And I fail to see *any* point in forcing users to learn Gentoo internals (sic!
> like USE flags).

USE flags are one of the key aspects of Gentoo. Users must know how to
use them and how to handle them. Gentoo isn't for mainstream users. User
who need and want a system that takes all the ugly little learning
things from them should use Ubuntu or any other "Windows-like
distribution".

Greetings

Sebastian

1i5t5.duncan at cox

Oct 26, 2009, 2:39 PM

Post #4 of 4 (718 views)
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Re: [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME [In reply to]

Maciej Mrozowski posted on Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:40:17 +0100 as excerpted:

> And I fail to see *any* point in forcing users to learn Gentoo internals
> (sic! like USE flags). What else? Ebuild syntax so that they're able to
> get to know what particular global USE flag is responsible for, when
> someone forgot (or decided not to) describe it in metadata.xml even when
> semantics is different? Maybe I sound too harsh here, but that's because
> I'm not ideologist - I'm practical man.

Actually, yes. Gentoo has never been a hand-holding distribution. We
try to provide documentation and reasonable defaults for any apps the
user chooses to install, and let the user configure what they will.

For some time I've wondered about all those profiles. IMO, for pure/
normal USE flag issues, we don't need profiles. Profiles are for things
such as setting the arch, masking stuff that won't run on that arch,
doing the necessary to make multilib work as appropriate, setting up a
basic "system" set of packages, etc.

After that, it's upto[1] the user. USE flags are documented in the
handbook, and a major defining part of what makes Gentoo, Gentoo. If
they can't even manage to learn USE flag basics, honestly, they'd be
better off with a different distribution, probably something that does a
bit more hand-holding, like Ubuntu, because they're going thru a whole
lot of additional hassle compiling stuff, etc, for very little payoff in
practical terms, because they simply aren't using Gentoo as it was
designed to be used.

So IMO, few if any USE flags should be set in the profiles. That is, or
should be, upto the user to decide. In general, if a USE flag is not set
in a user's make.conf, it shouldn't be on, with few exceptions definitely
not at the system level, and with some exceptions, not at the individual
ebuild/pkg level either.

---

[1] "Upto": Yeah, I know, but Wictionary already defines it as a "common
misspelling", so make it even more common and eventually it'll no longer
be a misspelling but considered normal and correct usage, just as into is
no longer a misspelling but normal and correct usage.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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