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WEEPING FOR WEP

 

 

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neal.krawetz at mac

Apr 6, 2007, 9:15 AM

Post #1 of 18 (1776 views)
Permalink
WEEPING FOR WEP

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

seconds. Knowing that WEP is no more secure than a plastic luggage
lock, many people are questioning whether WEP is even useful at all.

While I certainly do not recommend WEP for high security (or even
moderate risk) environments, you need to remember: security is a
measurement of risk. If the threat is low enough, then WEP should
be fine.

WEP actually has three things going in its favor:

* Availability: While there are many alternatives to WEP, such
as WPA and LEAP, only WEP is widely available. Hotels and coffee
shops that only cater to WPA or LEAP will not support many of their
customers. However, if you support WEP then everyone should be able
to access the network.

* Better than nothing: There's a saying in Colorado: I don't
have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than
you. If a casual war driver or WiFi-parasite has the option to use
your WEP system or your neighbor's open system, they will always
choose your neighbor. Having WEP makes you less desirable than an
open WiFi because there is no effort needed to use the network. If
you happen to live next to a coffee shop or library that offers
free WiFi, then the casual wireless user who just wants Internet
access will always choose free over the hassle of cracking WEP.
While WEP does not block a determined attacker who wants your
network, it will stop opportunistic network users. Attackers tend
to not be sophisticated and do not choose their targets. Attackers
are much like Russian roulette players, and like Russian roulette
players are usually both Russian and not very intelligent.

* Intent: This is a biggie. If someone trespassed on your
private network through an open wireless access point, then proving
digital trespassing can be very difficult. However, if the user
must bypass your minimalist WEP security, then they clearly show
intent to trespass.

Consider WEP like a low fence around a swimming pool. Without the
fence, you are in trouble if a neighborhood kid drowns in the pool.
It's an "attractive nuisance". However, with the fence, you should
be covered if a kid climbs the fence and drowns. It's still bad,
but you have a standing to refute blamed since you put up a
barrier, even if the barrier was minimal.

As far as WEP goes, it may not be very secure, but it is better
than the open-network alternative. If you have the option to use a
stronger security algorithm, then definitely do that. However, if
you have no other option, then WEP is better than nothing.

- - Dr. Neal Krawetz, PhD
Author of "An Advanced Guide to chmod(1)" and "An Introduction to
Graphical Wrappers for apt and dpkg in Ubuntu"

I am best known for spending two weeks figuring out alternatives to
single user mode on my Mac. PhD powah!

http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/
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--
Click to consolidate debt and lower month expenses
http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/CAaCXv1QPxZfhpzcJ4Xn8PICitIjcFxD/


_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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tcregger at kennedyinfo

Apr 6, 2007, 11:49 AM

Post #2 of 18 (1731 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I use WEP at home, even though my house is far enough from the road to
make it rather difficult for someone to jump on my network.

Even if someone decided to hide in the woods at the edge of my yard with
a laptop they're more likely to be eaten by a bear, sprayed by a skunk,
or chewed alive by mosquitoes than collecting enough packets to crack
the WEP key, so WPA or LEAP would be overkill.

Like you said, measurement of risk.


neal.krawetz[at]mac.hush.com wrote:
> seconds. Knowing that WEP is no more secure than a plastic luggage
> lock, many people are questioning whether WEP is even useful at all.
>
> While I certainly do not recommend WEP for high security (or even
> moderate risk) environments, you need to remember: security is a
> measurement of risk. If the threat is low enough, then WEP should
> be fine.
>
> WEP actually has three things going in its favor:
>
> * Availability: While there are many alternatives to WEP, such
> as WPA and LEAP, only WEP is widely available. Hotels and coffee
> shops that only cater to WPA or LEAP will not support many of their
> customers. However, if you support WEP then everyone should be able
> to access the network.
>
> * Better than nothing: There's a saying in Colorado: I don't
> have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than
> you. If a casual war driver or WiFi-parasite has the option to use
> your WEP system or your neighbor's open system, they will always
> choose your neighbor. Having WEP makes you less desirable than an
> open WiFi because there is no effort needed to use the network. If
> you happen to live next to a coffee shop or library that offers
> free WiFi, then the casual wireless user who just wants Internet
> access will always choose free over the hassle of cracking WEP.
> While WEP does not block a determined attacker who wants your
> network, it will stop opportunistic network users. Attackers tend
> to not be sophisticated and do not choose their targets. Attackers
> are much like Russian roulette players, and like Russian roulette
> players are usually both Russian and not very intelligent.
>
> * Intent: This is a biggie. If someone trespassed on your
> private network through an open wireless access point, then proving
> digital trespassing can be very difficult. However, if the user
> must bypass your minimalist WEP security, then they clearly show
> intent to trespass.
>
> Consider WEP like a low fence around a swimming pool. Without the
> fence, you are in trouble if a neighborhood kid drowns in the pool.
> It's an "attractive nuisance". However, with the fence, you should
> be covered if a kid climbs the fence and drowns. It's still bad,
> but you have a standing to refute blamed since you put up a
> barrier, even if the barrier was minimal.
>
> As far as WEP goes, it may not be very secure, but it is better
> than the open-network alternative. If you have the option to use a
> stronger security algorithm, then definitely do that. However, if
> you have no other option, then WEP is better than nothing.
>
> - Dr. Neal Krawetz, PhD
> Author of "An Advanced Guide to chmod(1)" and "An Introduction to
> Graphical Wrappers for apt and dpkg in Ubuntu"
>
> I am best known for spending two weeks figuring out alternatives to
> single user mode on my Mac. PhD powah!
>
> http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/

- --
Click to consolidate debt and lower month expenses
http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/CAaCXv1QPxZfhpzcJ4Xn8PICitIjcFxD/


_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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- --
Troy Cregger
Lead Developer, Technical Products.
Kennedy Information, Inc
One Phoenix Mill Ln, Fl 3
Peterborough, NH 03458
(603)924-0900 ext 662
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_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/


eballen1 at qwest

Apr 6, 2007, 12:05 PM

Post #3 of 18 (1728 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 neal.krawetz[at]mac.hush.com wrote:

...
> moderate risk) environments, you need to remember: security is a
> measurement of risk. If the threat is low enough, then WEP should
> be fine.
...

Wait just a minute. Do you propose to say that "security" is an economic
good, with associated opportunity costs and benefits? But just the other
day, all the anti-virus vendors and trade rags in the world seemed to
say that "security" was binary, and "on" is the preferred state.

What the sam scratch is going on around here? Do I have to make a tradeoff,
again?

_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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Valdis.Kletnieks at vt

Apr 6, 2007, 12:32 PM

Post #4 of 18 (1739 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:49:29 EDT, Troy Cregger said:
> Even if someone decided to hide in the woods at the edge of my yard with
> a laptop they're more likely to be eaten by a bear, sprayed by a skunk,
> or chewed alive by mosquitoes than collecting enough packets to crack
> the WEP key, so WPA or LEAP would be overkill.

That's one bad-ass woods you live in, or one *really* low packet rate network.
Given the recent attacks that can do the break based on only a few minutes of
packet capture on a moderately busy network, it shouldn't be more than a long
afternoon's work. Eaten by a bear is *exceedingly* rare, most skunks won't
spray unless you corner them, and if you have any brains it will take
mosquitoes a long afternoon to chew you alive unless you're in swampland.

I will however grant you that rabid skunks are both fairly common and
bad news.


Valdis.Kletnieks at vt

Apr 6, 2007, 12:44 PM

Post #5 of 18 (1740 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:05:00 MDT, Bruce Ediger said:

> Wait just a minute. Do you propose to say that "security" is an economic
> good, with associated opportunity costs and benefits? But just the other
> day, all the anti-virus vendors and trade rags in the world seemed to
> say that "security" was binary, and "on" is the preferred state.

Well, people who do it for a living understand it's a tradeoff continuum,
where fractional values make sense, and the most sensible setting varies
from place to place.

But when you're trying to sell to Joe Sixpack, or a PHB in upper management,
confusing him with more than two choices ("Good" and "Bad") just pisses him off
and loses you the sale.


michael.holstein at csuohio

Apr 6, 2007, 12:50 PM

Post #6 of 18 (1743 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

> I use WEP at home, even though my house is far enough from the road to
> make it rather difficult for someone to jump on my network.

Really? Like how far?

I've done point-to-multipoint (me with 24db parabolic, them with a
standard omni) at 6 miles (granted, I was on the 12th floor of a building).

> Even if someone decided to hide in the woods at the edge of my yard with
> a laptop they're more likely to be eaten by a bear, sprayed by a skunk,
> or chewed alive by mosquitoes

2 Linksys boxes running OpenWRT and a decent battery (actually using WDS
you could have a whole string of such devices) sort of negates the
mosquito/bear/skunk problem if you're so far away that you can't be
found with a reasonably high-gain antenna.

WEP is basically a screen door, and always has been.

~Mike.

_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/


george_ou at lanarchitect

Apr 6, 2007, 12:56 PM

Post #7 of 18 (1740 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

But WPA-PSK mode is even easier to use than WEP. Why would you use WEP. Distance isn't really a problem with a pringle can antenna.
George


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] WEEPING FOR WEP
From: Troy Cregger <tcregger[at]kennedyinfo.com>
Date: Fri, April 06, 2007 11:49 am
To: neal.krawetz[at]mac.hush.com
Cc: full-disclosure[at]lists.grok.org.uk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I use WEP at home, even though my house is far enough from the road to make it rather difficult for someone to jump on my network. Even if someone decided to hide in the woods at the edge of my yard with a laptop they're more likely to be eaten by a bear, sprayed by a skunk, or chewed alive by mosquitoes than collecting enough packets to crack the WEP key, so WPA or LEAP would be overkill. Like you said, measurement of risk. http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=11019#Compose"]neal.krawetz@mac.hush.com wrote: > seconds. Knowing that WEP is no more secure than a plastic luggage > lock, many people are questioning whether WEP is even useful at all. > > While I certainly do not recommend WEP for high security (or even > moderate risk) environments, you need to remember: security is a > measurement of risk. If the threat is low enough, then WEP should > be fine. > > WEP actually has three things going in its favor: > > * Availability: While there are many alternatives to WEP, such > as WPA and LEAP, only WEP is widely available. Hotels and coffee > shops that only cater to WPA or LEAP will not support many of their > customers. However, if you support WEP then everyone should be able > to access the network. > > * Better than nothing: There's a saying in Colorado: I don't > have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than > you. If a casual war driver or WiFi-parasite has the option to use > your WEP system or your neighbor's open system, they will always > choose your neighbor. Having WEP makes you less desirable than an > open WiFi because there is no effort needed to use the network. If > you happen to live next to a coffee shop or library that offers > free WiFi, then the casual wireless user who just wants Internet > access will always choose free over the hassle of cracking WEP. > While WEP does not block a determined attacker who wants your > network, it will stop opportunistic network users. Attackers tend > to not be sophisticated and do not choose their targets. Attackers > are much like Russian roulette players, and like Russian roulette > players are usually both Russian and not very intelligent. > > * Intent: This is a biggie. If someone trespassed on your > private network through an open wireless access point, then proving > digital trespassing can be very difficult. However, if the user > must bypass your minimalist WEP security, then they clearly show > intent to trespass. > > Consider WEP like a low fence around a swimming pool. Without the > fence, you are in trouble if a neighborhood kid drowns in the pool. > It's an "attractive nuisance". However, with the fence, you should > be covered if a kid climbs the fence and drowns. It's still bad, > but you have a standing to refute blamed since you put up a > barrier, even if the barrier was minimal. > > As far as WEP goes, it may not be very secure, but it is better > than the open-network alternative. If you have the option to use a > stronger security algorithm, then definitely do that. However, if > you have no other option, then WEP is better than nothing. > > - Dr. Neal Krawetz, PhD > Author of "An Advanced Guide to chmod(1)" and "An Introduction to > Graphical Wrappers for apt and dpkg in Ubuntu" > > I am best known for spending two weeks figuring out alternatives to > single user mode on my Mac. PhD powah! > > http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/%3C/font"]http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/> - -- Click to consolidate debt and lower month expenses http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/CAaCXv1QPxZfhpzcJ4Xn8PICitIjcFxD/"]http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/CAaCXv1QPxZfhpzcJ4Xn8PICitIjcFxD/ _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html"]http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/"]http://secunia.com/ - -- Troy Cregger Lead Developer, Technical Products. Kennedy Information, Inc One Phoenix Mill Ln, Fl 3 Peterborough, NH 03458 (603)924-0900 ext 662 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/"]http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGFpY5nBEWLrrYRl8RAujxAJ4/emoKx9/vwwteZeGrBdEQNJq7YwCfRT+H w5n4HjI21HB4ENS5a2hkTI0= =8pPp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html"]http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/"]http://secunia.com/


michael.holstein at csuohio

Apr 6, 2007, 1:07 PM

Post #8 of 18 (1735 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

> * Intent: This is a biggie. If someone trespassed on your
> private network through an open wireless access point, then proving
> digital trespassing can be very difficult. However, if the user
> must bypass your minimalist WEP security, then they clearly show
> intent to trespass.

Accessing it is different than listening to it. Assuming I don't do ARP
replay or other L2 games because I'm impatient, I've never really
"trespassed" since you were blasting your signal into a public area, and
it's an unlicensed band.

(IANAL .. anyone have a case law link for the above conjecture?)

> Consider WEP like a low fence around a swimming pool. Without the
> fence, you are in trouble if a neighborhood kid drowns in the pool.
> It's an "attractive nuisance". However, with the fence, you should
> be covered if a kid climbs the fence and drowns. It's still bad,
> but you have a standing to refute blamed since you put up a
> barrier, even if the barrier was minimal.

Depends .. can they convince the jury that your fence wasn't *really*
tall enough? Remember .. here in the US, store owners get sued because a
burglar falls through the roof during the course of a break-in.

Put another way, if I use a system known to be ineffective (a twist-tie
on a gate lock, to use the above "pool" example) it could be plausibly
argued that you in effect made no effort at all.

Once someone writes a network widget that automates the (capture ->
crack -> connect) process, it could probably argued the same way for WEP
(again .. IANAL).

~Mike.

_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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steven at securityzone

Apr 6, 2007, 1:09 PM

Post #9 of 18 (1729 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

I do not use WEP at home. I use WPA2 on my home network. I agree with
the majority of what you both have said. However, if you solely relied on
the risk level as the reason not upgrading to a more secure mechanism, I
would say you are doing yourself a disservice. Now since I often rely on
NIST for guidance, I will reference NIST SP 800-30.

"Risk is a function of the likelihood of a given threat-source’s
exercising a particular potential vulnerability, and the resulting impact
of that adverse event on the organization."

Now we might not allow agree with NIST or follow what they write, but they
are smart people doing a good job from my point of view. However, I would
have to say for almost all home users and even most business environments
the "impact" that a successful attack would also be rated as low. These
conversations have been focusing on likelihood of an attack. Well
likelihood can fluctuate all of the time. It will probably be low, but it
can change depending on your environment from a day-to-day basis.

So let's just say for the purposes of the discussion that there was a very
high likelihood someone is going to attack your home WEP network and they
are also capable of doing so. Now what is the impact? I doubt the real
potential impact would be crucial to ruin or end your life. If you go to
shopping and banking sites that use TLS/SSL and you check your certs you
probably won't have your credit card information or identity stolen. For
them to actually break into your machine once on the network there would
have to be more vulnerabilities resulting in the compromise of your
machine. Maybe the person launches attacks and does bad stuff from your
IP address and you might at worst get paid a visit (worst case scenario).

When you look at the impact that would probably caused you have a low
impact. Couple that with a low, medium, or high likelihood and you still
have LOW risk. By these definitions WEP good enough in most situations.
Heck by these definitions an open network might even be low risk in many
cases.

There is no question that there is a vulnerability with WEP that can be
exploited. The question is whether or not someone will actually take the
time to exploit this vulnerability and what will happen as a result?

What I am getting at is that the cost of using WPA2 in many instances is
negligible if there is a cost at all. How many people are using a Linksys
WRT54G and a laptop that is less than 3 years old. Chances are all of
these users can support WPA at minimum. I've had to run a separate
network for WEP users so I am not oblivious to that fact that not everyone
supports it. However, their are PCMIA/PCI/USB wireless cards that can be
added at a low cost *if* WPA(2) is not already supported.

It seems all [most] new hardware support WPA(2). The cost is very low and
it's readily available and accepted. Why NOT use WPA(2) if you can? Do
you use the Caesar Cipher to encrypt your data or AES-256? If you just go
by risk, you could just use the Caesar Cipher half of the time. The
likelihood someone will get your "encrypted" data is low, right? You
cannot base all your decisions around risk of likelihood. Especially when
there are easy, low cost, and efficient alternatives.

Also, as a side note, WPA(2) Personal mode with a strong passphrase is a
lot easier to remember than a WEP key...unless you have one of the
utilities that generates the key for you. Even then you have diminishing
returns.

Steven



> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I use WEP at home, even though my house is far enough from the road to
> make it rather difficult for someone to jump on my network.
>
> Even if someone decided to hide in the woods at the edge of my yard with
> a laptop they're more likely to be eaten by a bear, sprayed by a skunk,
> or chewed alive by mosquitoes than collecting enough packets to crack
> the WEP key, so WPA or LEAP would be overkill.
>
> Like you said, measurement of risk.
>
>
> neal.krawetz[at]mac.hush.com wrote:
>> seconds. Knowing that WEP is no more secure than a plastic luggage
>> lock, many people are questioning whether WEP is even useful at all.
>>
>> While I certainly do not recommend WEP for high security (or even
>> moderate risk) environments, you need to remember: security is a
>> measurement of risk. If the threat is low enough, then WEP should
>> be fine.
>>
>> WEP actually has three things going in its favor:
>>
>> * Availability: While there are many alternatives to WEP, such
>> as WPA and LEAP, only WEP is widely available. Hotels and coffee
>> shops that only cater to WPA or LEAP will not support many of their
>> customers. However, if you support WEP then everyone should be able
>> to access the network.
>>
>> * Better than nothing: There's a saying in Colorado: I don't
>> have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than
>> you. If a casual war driver or WiFi-parasite has the option to use
>> your WEP system or your neighbor's open system, they will always
>> choose your neighbor. Having WEP makes you less desirable than an
>> open WiFi because there is no effort needed to use the network. If
>> you happen to live next to a coffee shop or library that offers
>> free WiFi, then the casual wireless user who just wants Internet
>> access will always choose free over the hassle of cracking WEP.
>> While WEP does not block a determined attacker who wants your
>> network, it will stop opportunistic network users. Attackers tend
>> to not be sophisticated and do not choose their targets. Attackers
>> are much like Russian roulette players, and like Russian roulette
>> players are usually both Russian and not very intelligent.
>>
>> * Intent: This is a biggie. If someone trespassed on your
>> private network through an open wireless access point, then proving
>> digital trespassing can be very difficult. However, if the user
>> must bypass your minimalist WEP security, then they clearly show
>> intent to trespass.
>>
>> Consider WEP like a low fence around a swimming pool. Without the
>> fence, you are in trouble if a neighborhood kid drowns in the pool.
>> It's an "attractive nuisance". However, with the fence, you should
>> be covered if a kid climbs the fence and drowns. It's still bad,
>> but you have a standing to refute blamed since you put up a
>> barrier, even if the barrier was minimal.
>>
>> As far as WEP goes, it may not be very secure, but it is better
>> than the open-network alternative. If you have the option to use a
>> stronger security algorithm, then definitely do that. However, if
>> you have no other option, then WEP is better than nothing.
>>
>> - Dr. Neal Krawetz, PhD
>> Author of "An Advanced Guide to chmod(1)" and "An Introduction to
>> Graphical Wrappers for apt and dpkg in Ubuntu"
>>
>> I am best known for spending two weeks figuring out alternatives to
>> single user mode on my Mac. PhD powah!
>>
>> http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/
>
> - --
> Click to consolidate debt and lower month expenses
> http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/CAaCXv1QPxZfhpzcJ4Xn8PICitIjcFxD/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
> - --
> Troy Cregger
> Lead Developer, Technical Products.
> Kennedy Information, Inc
> One Phoenix Mill Ln, Fl 3
> Peterborough, NH 03458
> (603)924-0900 ext 662
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFGFpY5nBEWLrrYRl8RAujxAJ4/emoKx9/vwwteZeGrBdEQNJq7YwCfRT+H
> w5n4HjI21HB4ENS5a2hkTI0=
> =8pPp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
> !DSPAM:461696bd242612853513125!
>


_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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mike.vasquez at gmail

Apr 6, 2007, 1:22 PM

Post #10 of 18 (1736 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

And traffic rate shouldn't be in the discussion either, since arp-replay
allows enough packets to be captured, on most home equipment, in about 20
minutes if you're unlucky, and attacking 128-bit wep. 64 bit keys can be
had in under 5 minutes, 128 in under 10, and all you have to do is be
connected for that length of time.



On 4/6/07, george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net <george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net> wrote:
>
> But WPA-PSK mode is even easier to use than WEP. Why would you use WEP.
> Distance isn't really a problem with a pringle can antenna.
>
>
> George
>


george_ou at lanarchitect

Apr 6, 2007, 1:41 PM

Post #11 of 18 (1733 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

With the newest crack released earlier this week from the German researchers that reduces the number of packets by an order of magnitude, that's under 1 minute on average with ARP replay on an 802.11g network. About 20 seconds average if the network is going full blast on its own. http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/Ou/?p=464"]http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/Ou/?p=464 George
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] WEEPING FOR WEP
From: "Mike Vasquez" <mike.vasquez[at]gmail.com>
Date: Fri, April 06, 2007 1:22 pm
To: full-disclosure[at]lists.grok.org.uk

And traffic rate shouldn't be in the discussion either, since arp-replay allows enough packets to be captured, on most home equipment, in about 20 minutes if you're unlucky, and attacking 128-bit wep. 64 bit keys can be had in under 5 minutes, 128 in under 10, and all you have to do is be connected for that length of time.



On 4/6/07, george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net <george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net > wrote:
But WPA-PSK mode is even easier to use than WEP. Why would you use WEP. Distance isn't really a problem with a pringle can antenna.
George


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tcregger at kennedyinfo

Apr 6, 2007, 1:41 PM

Post #12 of 18 (1726 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

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> Really? Like how far?

Like, I can probably get my car up over 45mph(72.42kph) before I get to
the end of my driveway far.

> I've done point-to-multipoint (me with 24db parabolic, them with a standard omni) at 6 miles (granted, I was on the 12th floor of a building).

Yeah, there's some cool shit that can be done with
wireless/WRT/WDS/parabolocs... a friend of mine was experimenting with
some directional antenna and the WRT54Gs running one of the 3rd party
firmwares. He got some pretty far reaching signals. But he had tall
buildings around too. Where I'm at, you'd be in a tree.

> 2 Linksys boxes running OpenWRT and a decent battery (actually using WDS you could have a whole string of such devices) sort of negates the mosquito/bear/skunk problem if you're so far away that you can't be found with a reasonably high-gain antenna.

You'll need a bunch of em... it takes me 25 minutes to drive to the
grocery, and I know a shortcut.

> WEP is basically a screen door, and always has been.

True, I won't argue with that. I just need to deter the neighbors from
trying a simplified version of the above so they can get free broadband
access, but even if it was an open AP, I doubt anyone would bother.
Where I live, I'm lucky if my broadband connection is working at all. In
the last 4 months alone I've gotten over $100 credited to me on my cable
bill for downtime. My house came hard wired for a generator... that
pretty much says it all right there.

I wouldn't trade it for anything though, not even heating my food on the
wood stove like it's 1827 when the power is out for 26 hours.

NOTE: I still need to pick up a generator, anyone know of one for sale? ;o)


Michael Holstein wrote:
>> I use WEP at home, even though my house is far enough from the road to
>> make it rather difficult for someone to jump on my network.
>
> Really? Like how far?
>
> I've done point-to-multipoint (me with 24db parabolic, them with a
> standard omni) at 6 miles (granted, I was on the 12th floor of a building).
>
>> Even if someone decided to hide in the woods at the edge of my yard with
>> a laptop they're more likely to be eaten by a bear, sprayed by a skunk,
>> or chewed alive by mosquitoes
>
> 2 Linksys boxes running OpenWRT and a decent battery (actually using WDS
> you could have a whole string of such devices) sort of negates the
> mosquito/bear/skunk problem if you're so far away that you can't be
> found with a reasonably high-gain antenna.
>
> WEP is basically a screen door, and always has been.
>
> ~Mike.

- --
Troy Cregger
Lead Developer, Technical Products.
Kennedy Information, Inc
One Phoenix Mill Ln, Fl 3
Peterborough, NH 03458
(603)924-0900 ext 662
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kf_lists at digitalmunition

Apr 6, 2007, 1:48 PM

Post #13 of 18 (1734 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

Small plane or Balloon perhaps?

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/warflying.ars

-KF


On Apr 6, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Troy Cregger wrote:


> Where I'm at, you'd be in a tree.

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gar at askgar

Apr 6, 2007, 2:09 PM

Post #14 of 18 (1739 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

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Neal,

Your three WEP points of favor are interesting discussion points.

#1 - Availability.

That's an excellent point and one we should start pushing to change.
WEP is the primary "hotel" wireless protocol. Hotel users usually have
the choices of "Open" "WEP" or "Bring Your Own". It needs to be
stressed to the Hiltons and Marriotts of the world that using WEP is a
huge disservice to their customers, which means we need to
"bullet-proof" some of the other methods.

I'm going through this one at work right now myself. My team convinced
me that we should use "WPA2" with TKIP for our new wireless service.
Guess what? Most Windows-controlled wireless laptops don't have an
option to select WPA2 as their authentication protocol! My team says
"No problem, we can just have them download a more recent version of
their driver and use the software that comes with their wireless card to
manage their wireless instead of the windows client."

ARRRGH! *NOT* a valid answer!

- ---------------

#2 - Better than nothing.

Actually, the point of the Weeping for WEP story is that its no longer
any harder to break WEP than it is to connect to an open network.
Demonstrated "time-to-connect" according to the German's paper? 60
seconds. Now, if I needed 45 minutes to get on to your network, I'd
likely keep driving. But if it truly only takes 60 seconds? Its easier
to get on your network than to drive to the next signal? (Unless your
in my office, where from my 10th floor window I can see 51 Wireless
networks, 30 "open" and 21 "WEP" without an external antenna from my
Dell laptop).


The infoworld article:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/04/04/HNdontusewep_1.html

and the actual paper:

http://eprint.iacr.org/2007/120.pdf

make it clear that 50 seconds of gathering and 3 seconds of cracking
open a 104-bit WEP key.


- ----------------

#3 - Intent of Trespass.

Well, its true that you could say "He intentionally broke in", but how
many wireless intrusion cases were there in the entire US last year?
Three? Four? I'd rather just spend 5 minutes to update my security
and be secure rather than knowing that I could "prove" the guy who stole
my bandwidth (and identity?) did so "on purpose".

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!



_-_
gar
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Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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allinson.robert at gmail

Apr 6, 2007, 2:38 PM

Post #15 of 18 (1736 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

Security is not a state. It is a practise.

On 4/6/07, Bruce Ediger <eballen1[at]qwest.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 neal.krawetz[at]mac.hush.com wrote:
>
> ...
> > moderate risk) environments, you need to remember: security is a
> > measurement of risk. If the threat is low enough, then WEP should
> > be fine.
> ...
>
> Wait just a minute. Do you propose to say that "security" is an economic
> good, with associated opportunity costs and benefits? But just the other
> day, all the anti-virus vendors and trade rags in the world seemed to
> say that "security" was binary, and "on" is the preferred state.
>
> What the sam scratch is going on around here? Do I have to make a
> tradeoff,
> again?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>


james.mailing at gmail

Apr 6, 2007, 2:40 PM

Post #16 of 18 (1737 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

Gary Warner wrote:

> I'm going through this one at work right now myself. My team convinced
> me that we should use "WPA2" with TKIP for our new wireless service.
> Guess what? Most Windows-controlled wireless laptops don't have an
> option to select WPA2 as their authentication protocol! My team says
> "No problem, we can just have them download a more recent version of
> their driver and use the software that comes with their wireless card to
> manage their wireless instead of the windows client."
>
> ARRRGH! *NOT* a valid answer!

I suspect whether this is a "most" or not depends a lot on your hardware
refresh cycle and what sort of kit you buy - if you've been buying Intel
Centrino kit, it all supports WPA (the ipw2100 may not, but everything
since then certainly does) so long as you've got the latest drivers and
the WPA2 Hotfix for XP.

I've implemented WPA2 Infrastructures recently, and the number of
laptops which haven't supported WPA2 is somewhere in the 10-15% range.
Oddly enough, we have two ipw2200-equipped Toshiba laptops which (even
after a full reinstall, and using identical drivers/firmware to machines
that do work) refuse to talk WPA2...

If you have older prism kit, or a chipset like atheros which is commonly
rebadged/resold, you may not have WPA2-compatible drivers/firmware for
the card even if the same chipset in other vendors' devices (or in
linux) supports WPA2.

Thankfully, at the current point in time, sporting the Wifi logo
requires WPA2 support so far as I'm aware, so anything you buy now
*should* support WPA2. I'm not sure when this requirement came into
effect, though..

- James.

--
James (njan) Eaton-Lee | UIN: 10807960 | http://www.jeremiad.org

"All at sea again / And now my hurricanes
Have brought down this ocean rain / To bathe me again"

https://www.bsrf.org.uk | ca: https://www.cacert.org/index.php?id=3
--
Attachments: smime.p7s (3.44 KB)


mike.vasquez at gmail

Apr 6, 2007, 3:44 PM

Post #17 of 18 (1731 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

Nice, even better. So that means a lot of the higher end APs that use
sophisticated techniques (smaller IV pools, dynamic, etc) are going to be
much less effective. I know a few large entities that will be affected
negatively. Time to seriously upgrade the wireless security!

People who don't think they need more than wep are fooling themselves. Kids
will a) build that cool pringles can antenna to experiment... b) run kismet
to explore the wireless around them, and c) practice their wepcracking on
your network. what's next? Exploring your windows machines once they're
on.

They'll be destructive just b/c they can. Keylogger on your home pc?
cake. Do you patch every day? All they need is one windows vulnerability
to get access to all your data. Anything think that if they wait long
enough, a windows flaw will come around? hrm? and *then* your network will
be... their network.

It's really not that far fetched.



On 4/6/07, george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net <george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net> wrote:
>
> With the newest crack released earlier this week from the German
> researchers that reduces the number of packets by an order of magnitude,
> that's under 1 minute on average with ARP replay on an 802.11g network.
> About 20 seconds average if the network is going full blast on its own.
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/Ou/?p=464
>
>
> George
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] WEEPING FOR WEP
> From: "Mike Vasquez" <mike.vasquez[at]gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, April 06, 2007 1:22 pm
> To: full-disclosure[at]lists.grok.org.uk
>
> And traffic rate shouldn't be in the discussion either, since arp-replay
> allows enough packets to be captured, on most home equipment, in about 20
> minutes if you're unlucky, and attacking 128-bit wep. 64 bit keys can be
> had in under 5 minutes, 128 in under 10, and all you have to do is be
> connected for that length of time.
>
>
>
> On 4/6/07, george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net <george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net > wrote:
> >
> > But WPA-PSK mode is even easier to use than WEP. Why would you use
> > WEP. Distance isn't really a problem with a pringle can antenna.
> >
> >
> > George
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ <http://secunia.com/%3C/pre>
>
> >
>
>


tcregger at kennedyinfo

Apr 9, 2007, 6:11 AM

Post #18 of 18 (1695 views)
Permalink
Re: WEEPING FOR WEP [In reply to]

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Ahh those windows, drafty things, always letting the elements in, might
want to get some plastic up over em'... better yet, replace them altogether.


- -tlc

Mike Vasquez wrote:
> Nice, even better. So that means a lot of the higher end APs that use
> sophisticated techniques (smaller IV pools, dynamic, etc) are going to
> be much less effective. I know a few large entities that will be
> affected negatively. Time to seriously upgrade the wireless security!
>
> People who don't think they need more than wep are fooling themselves.
> Kids will a) build that cool pringles can antenna to experiment... b)
> run kismet to explore the wireless around them, and c) practice their
> wepcracking on your network. what's next? Exploring your windows
> machines once they're on.
>
> They'll be destructive just b/c they can. Keylogger on your home pc?
> cake. Do you patch every day? All they need is one windows
> vulnerability to get access to all your data. Anything think that if
> they wait long enough, a windows flaw will come around? hrm? and
> *then* your network will be... their network.
>
> It's really not that far fetched.
>
>
>
> On 4/6/07, *george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net
> <mailto:george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net>* < george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net
> <mailto:george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net>> wrote:
>
> With the newest crack released earlier this week from the German
> researchers that reduces the number of packets by an order of
> magnitude, that's under 1 minute on average with ARP replay on an
> 802.11g network. About 20 seconds average if the network is going
> full blast on its own.
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/Ou/?p=464
>
>
> George
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] WEEPING FOR WEP
> From: "Mike Vasquez" <mike.vasquez[at]gmail.com
> <mailto:mike.vasquez[at]gmail.com>>
> Date: Fri, April 06, 2007 1:22 pm
> To: full-disclosure[at]lists.grok.org.uk
> <mailto:full-disclosure[at]lists.grok.org.uk>
>
> And traffic rate shouldn't be in the discussion either, since
> arp-replay allows enough packets to be captured, on most home
> equipment, in about 20 minutes if you're unlucky, and attacking
> 128-bit wep. 64 bit keys can be had in under 5 minutes, 128 in
> under 10, and all you have to do is be connected for that length
> of time.
>
>
>
> On 4/6/07, *george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net
> <mailto:george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net>* <
> george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net <mailto:george_ou[at]lanarchitect.net>>
> wrote:
>
> But WPA-PSK mode is even easier to use than WEP. Why would
> you use WEP. Distance isn't really a problem with a pringle
> can antenna.
>
>
> George
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>
> Charter:
> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> <http://secunia.com/%3C/pre>
>
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
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