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Major announcement

 

 

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gerald at wireshark

Jun 7, 2006, 3:06 PM

Post #1 of 37 (6090 views)
Permalink
Major announcement

I recently accepted a job with CACE Technologies, best known for
WinPcap. This means that I get to work with Loris Degioanni and
Gianluca Varenni, and that my wife and I get to raise our daughter in
Davis, CA.

The move also means a major change for the project. We're continuing
development under the name "Wireshark", at http://www.wireshark.org/ .
The web site, mailing lists, bug tracker, SVN repository, buildbot, and
other resources are already in place. All recent source code
submissions have been checked into the new repository, and automated
builds are available at http://www.wireshark.org/download/automated/ .

The next version of Wireshark will be 0.99.1. A prerelease version,
0.99.1pre1, is available for downlowoad right now at
http://www.wireshark.org/download/ .

_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


mailinglists at erwinrol

Jun 7, 2006, 4:08 PM

Post #2 of 37 (5946 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 17:06 -0500, Gerald Combs wrote:
> I recently accepted a job with CACE Technologies, best known for
> WinPcap. This means that I get to work with Loris Degioanni and
> Gianluca Varenni, and that my wife and I get to raise our daughter in
> Davis, CA.

> The move also means a major change for the project. We're continuing
> development under the name "Wireshark", at http://www.wireshark.org/ .
> The web site, mailing lists, bug tracker, SVN repository, buildbot, and
> other resources are already in place. All recent source code
> submissions have been checked into the new repository, and automated
> builds are available at http://www.wireshark.org/download/automated/ .

A bit more explanation on the what, why, and who made that decision
might be helpful understanding this move.

- Erwin



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Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


jhoger at gmail

Jun 7, 2006, 4:44 PM

Post #3 of 37 (5946 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Some more FAQs for the Wireshark FAQ:

"1) Why did you fork Ethereal?"
as in, do you have a broad vision for improvements to the core of
ethereal that you couldn't manage otherwise? Was it just to change the
name? etc.

"2) With your obvious people skills, have you considered going into politics?"
No discussion prior to the "move," a backhanded slap to anyone that
doesn't work at CACE as being non-core-developers, etc.

3) What does this mean for the Ethereal project, if anything

Forking a project is a huge political event in any project,
essentially as violent an act as occurs in any FOSS project. One does
not expect it to be done lightly.

-- John.
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ewedel at bluearc

Jun 7, 2006, 5:13 PM

Post #4 of 37 (5945 views)
Permalink
RE: Major announcement [In reply to]

And while not as weighty as the questions below,

4) What's with the new name? Even if ethereal does do more
than just ethernet, the name still seems much more suited
than a salt water sea creature made of wire.

-----Original Message-----
From: ethereal-dev-bounces [at] ethereal
[mailto:ethereal-dev-bounces [at] ethereal] On Behalf Of John R.
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 PM
To: Ethereal development
Subject: Re: [Ethereal-dev] Major announcement

Some more FAQs for the Wireshark FAQ:

"1) Why did you fork Ethereal?"
as in, do you have a broad vision for improvements to the core of
ethereal that you couldn't manage otherwise? Was it just to change the
name? etc.

"2) With your obvious people skills, have you considered going into
politics?"
No discussion prior to the "move," a backhanded slap to anyone that
doesn't work at CACE as being non-core-developers, etc.

3) What does this mean for the Ethereal project, if anything

Forking a project is a huge political event in any project, essentially
as violent an act as occurs in any FOSS project. One does not expect it
to be done lightly.

-- John.
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


jeff.morriss at ulticom

Jun 7, 2006, 6:48 PM

Post #5 of 37 (5939 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

John R. wrote:
> Some more FAQs for the Wireshark FAQ:
>
> "1) Why did you fork Ethereal?"
> as in, do you have a broad vision for improvements to the core of
> ethereal that you couldn't manage otherwise? Was it just to change the
> name? etc.

It seems (to ignorant me) that it must be more than just a name change
since everything was _copied_ from Ethereal to Wireshark. That seems to
me to be a lot more work than a global search-n-replace from Ethereal to
Wireshark. Though maybe there were infrastructure reasons for that? It
does seem odd, though, to leave Ethereal out there with--presumably--no
one left who can/will check in changes to it.

(Of course because it was a copy, now all of us need to subscribe to all
the new mailing lists, get a new login for the new bug tracker, and
probably a few more things; at least it looks like switching SVNs will
be relatively painless.)

BTW, should the NEWS on ethereal.com be updated with this announcement?

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guy at alum

Jun 7, 2006, 7:29 PM

Post #6 of 37 (5929 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:44 PM, John R. wrote:

> "2) With your obvious people skills, have you considered going into
> politics?"
> No discussion prior to the "move," a backhanded slap to anyone that
> doesn't work at CACE as being non-core-developers, etc.

Only one of the core developers, in the sense of people with
privileges to directly commit to the Subversion repository, works for
CACE.

_______________________________________________
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Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


jhoger at gmail

Jun 7, 2006, 8:50 PM

Post #7 of 37 (5942 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On 6/7/06, Guy Harris <guy [at] alum> wrote:
>
> On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:44 PM, John R. wrote:
>
> > "2) With your obvious people skills, have you considered going into
> > politics?"
> > No discussion prior to the "move," a backhanded slap to anyone that
> > doesn't work at CACE as being non-core-developers, etc.
>
> Only one of the core developers, in the sense of people with
> privileges to directly commit to the Subversion repository, works for
> CACE.

Interesting. From the actual Wireshark FAQ:

> Q 1.2: What's up with the name change? Is Wireshark a fork?
>
> A: In May of 2006, the original author of Ethereal(r) went to work for CACE Technologies (best known for WinPcap). At that time he started the Wireshark open-source project.
>
> Wireshark is almost (but not quite) a fork. Normally a "fork" of an open source project results in two names, web sites, development teams, support infrastructures, etc. This is the case with Wireshark except for one notable exception -- every member of the core development team is now working on Wireshark.
>

Further there appears to be a company called wireshark already
http://wireshark.com/ but I guess there's no trademark infringement
since there's little likelihood of confusion. Still, a strange choice
considering Ethereal already has a lot of cachet.

Curiouser and curiouser... lets countdown to use of the phrase
"jumping the wireshark" on Slashdot...

-- John.
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guy at alum

Jun 7, 2006, 9:17 PM

Post #8 of 37 (5936 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Jun 7, 2006, at 8:50 PM, John R. wrote:

> Interesting. From the actual Wireshark FAQ:
>
>> Q 1.2: What's up with the name change? Is Wireshark a fork?
>>
>> A: In May of 2006, the original author of Ethereal(r) went to work
>> for CACE Technologies (best known for WinPcap).

I.e., Gerald Combs went to work for CACE.

>> Wireshark is almost (but not quite) a fork. Normally a "fork" of
>> an open source project results in two names, web sites,
>> development teams, support infrastructures, etc. This is the case
>> with Wireshark except for one notable exception -- every member of
>> the core development team is now working on Wireshark.

I.e., every member of the old Ethereal core development team (which
is being used in the sense of "people with privileges to directly
commit to the Subversion repository") is now working on Wireshark.

Nothing in the FAQ says that every member of the core development
team went to work for CACE - and, in fact, they didn't. Most if not
all of us, with the exception of Gerald, still work where we did before.

_______________________________________________
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jhoger at gmail

Jun 7, 2006, 9:52 PM

Post #9 of 37 (5927 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On 6/7/06, Guy Harris <guy [at] alum> wrote:
> Nothing in the FAQ says that every member of the core development
> team went to work for CACE - and, in fact, they didn't. Most if not
> all of us, with the exception of Gerald, still work where we did before.
>

I stand corrected! Guess I was reading into it. I still haven't heard
any a) actual reason for a fork and b) what impact this is expected to
have on Ethereal project.

-- John.
_______________________________________________
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Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
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jaap.keuter at xs4all

Jun 7, 2006, 10:33 PM

Post #10 of 37 (5933 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Hi,

a) Ethereal(R) (the name) is ultimately owned by NIS Inc. Gerald couldn't
hang on to that name, so he renamed the program. What NIS Inc. is doing
with the name and the program is unknown.

b) Ethereal is 'dead in the water' (ready to be eaten by a shark :) )
All core developers went to work on Wireshark, since they feel that is
where the work continues. They have no more base to call home at
ethereal.com.

Now it's just a matter of working the user community to come over the
www.wireshark.org and enjoy the same fuzzy feeling. ;)

Thanx,
Jaap

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, John R. wrote:

> On 6/7/06, Guy Harris <guy [at] alum> wrote:
> > Nothing in the FAQ says that every member of the core development
> > team went to work for CACE - and, in fact, they didn't. Most if not
> > all of us, with the exception of Gerald, still work where we did before.
> >
>
> I stand corrected! Guess I was reading into it. I still haven't heard
> any a) actual reason for a fork and b) what impact this is expected to
> have on Ethereal project.
>
> -- John.
> _______________________________________________
> Ethereal-dev mailing list
> Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
> http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev
>

_______________________________________________
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http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


bogdana.botez at alcatel

Jun 7, 2006, 11:40 PM

Post #11 of 37 (5931 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

And when you will move from CACE, will it keep its name?

Regards,
Bogdana Botez



Gerald Combs wrote:

>I recently accepted a job with CACE Technologies, best known for
>WinPcap. This means that I get to work with Loris Degioanni and
>Gianluca Varenni, and that my wife and I get to raise our daughter in
>Davis, CA.
>
>The move also means a major change for the project. We're continuing
>development under the name "Wireshark", at http://www.wireshark.org/ .
>The web site, mailing lists, bug tracker, SVN repository, buildbot, and
>other resources are already in place. All recent source code
>submissions have been checked into the new repository, and automated
>builds are available at http://www.wireshark.org/download/automated/ .
>
>The next version of Wireshark will be 0.99.1. A prerelease version,
>0.99.1pre1, is available for downlowoad right now at
>http://www.wireshark.org/download/ .
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ethereal-dev mailing list
>Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
>http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


mailinglists at erwinrol

Jun 8, 2006, 12:28 AM

Post #12 of 37 (5937 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 17:06 -0500, Gerald Combs wrote:
> I recently accepted a job with CACE Technologies, best known for
> WinPcap. This means that I get to work with Loris Degioanni and
> Gianluca Varenni, and that my wife and I get to raise our daughter in
> Davis, CA.
>
> The move also means a major change for the project. We're continuing
> development under the name "Wireshark", at http://www.wireshark.org/ .
> The web site, mailing lists, bug tracker, SVN repository, buildbot, and
> other resources are already in place. All recent source code
> submissions have been checked into the new repository, and automated
> builds are available at http://www.wireshark.org/download/automated/ .
>
> The next version of Wireshark will be 0.99.1. A prerelease version,
> 0.99.1pre1, is available for downlowoad right now at
> http://www.wireshark.org/download/ .

First of all still nobody answered the questions people have on the why
this was done, just because Gerald got a new job is no reason.

So what is the reason of this change?

Than it is good to know that all non-core-developers, those that only
help with pity little things like bug fixing and one or two little
dissectors, are not important enough to be informed about this before it
happens.

It would be interesting to know who those core-developers are, and who
is that "one notable exception" ?

Also as mentioned by someone else, it might be a good idea to put a
explanation on www.ethereal.com.

So what is happening to ethereal, where should i send patches, to what
SVN should my patches be made, who is "owning" ethereal, etc. etc. Even
the Bush administration has a better information policy on the Iraq war
than what is happening here.

All with all I think it is very disappointing how this was and still is
handled, it some how seems that core-developers distrust the other
developers and users.

- Erwin




_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


jaap.keuter at xs4all

Jun 8, 2006, 12:42 AM

Post #13 of 37 (5944 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Hi Erwin,

Please see this reply on similar questions by John

> On 6/7/06, Guy Harris <guy [at] alum> wrote:
> > Nothing in the FAQ says that every member of the core development
> > team went to work for CACE - and, in fact, they didn't. Most if not
> > all of us, with the exception of Gerald, still work where we did
> > before.
> >
>
> I stand corrected! Guess I was reading into it. I still haven't heard
> any a) actual reason for a fork and b) what impact this is expected to
> have on Ethereal project.

Hi,

a) Ethereal(R) (the name) is ultimately owned by NIS Inc. Gerald couldn't
hang on to that name, so he renamed the program. What NIS Inc. is doing
with the name and the program is unknown.

b) Ethereal is 'dead in the water' (ready to be eaten by a shark :) )
All core developers went to work on Wireshark, since they feel that is
where the work continues. They have no more base to call home at
ethereal.com.

Now it's just a matter of working the user community to come over the
www.wireshark.org and enjoy the same fuzzy feeling. ;)

Thanx,
Jaap

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Erwin Rol wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 17:06 -0500, Gerald Combs wrote:
> > I recently accepted a job with CACE Technologies, best known for
> > WinPcap. This means that I get to work with Loris Degioanni and
> > Gianluca Varenni, and that my wife and I get to raise our daughter in
> > Davis, CA.
> >
> > The move also means a major change for the project. We're continuing
> > development under the name "Wireshark", at http://www.wireshark.org/ .
> > The web site, mailing lists, bug tracker, SVN repository, buildbot, and
> > other resources are already in place. All recent source code
> > submissions have been checked into the new repository, and automated
> > builds are available at http://www.wireshark.org/download/automated/ .
> >
> > The next version of Wireshark will be 0.99.1. A prerelease version,
> > 0.99.1pre1, is available for downlowoad right now at
> > http://www.wireshark.org/download/ .
>
> First of all still nobody answered the questions people have on the why
> this was done, just because Gerald got a new job is no reason.
>
> So what is the reason of this change?
>
> Than it is good to know that all non-core-developers, those that only
> help with pity little things like bug fixing and one or two little
> dissectors, are not important enough to be informed about this before it
> happens.
>
> It would be interesting to know who those core-developers are, and who
> is that "one notable exception" ?
>
> Also as mentioned by someone else, it might be a good idea to put a
> explanation on www.ethereal.com.
>
> So what is happening to ethereal, where should i send patches, to what
> SVN should my patches be made, who is "owning" ethereal, etc. etc. Even
> the Bush administration has a better information policy on the Iraq war
> than what is happening here.
>
> All with all I think it is very disappointing how this was and still is
> handled, it some how seems that core-developers distrust the other
> developers and users.
>
> - Erwin

_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


ulf.lamping at web

Jun 8, 2006, 12:49 AM

Post #14 of 37 (5948 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Erwin Rol wrote:
> First of all still nobody answered the questions people have on the why
> this was done, just because Gerald got a new job is no reason.
>
Well, Gerald is the founder of the project. He had to leave the
trademark, website and things at NSI (his former employer),
with no admin access to the servers.

We don't know what NSI will do with Ethereal in the future, so it seemed
a necessary thing to switch things now.
> So what is the reason of this change?
>
See above.
> Than it is good to know that all non-core-developers, those that only
> help with pity little things like bug fixing and one or two little
> dissectors, are not important enough to be informed about this before it
> happens.
>
I had a bad feeling about this too ...

I'm sorry about the feelings you have on this, and I can understand you
with this.
> It would be interesting to know who those core-developers are, and who
> is that "one notable exception" ?
>
Basically all the ones that you'll find in the (public) commit mailing
lists of wireshark (and formerly Ethereal).
> Also as mentioned by someone else, it might be a good idea to put a
> explanation on www.ethereal.com.
>
That's not possible for us, as Gerald has no longer the admin right to
do this.
> So what is happening to ethereal, where should i send patches, to what
> SVN should my patches be made, who is "owning" ethereal, etc. etc. Even
> the Bush administration has a better information policy on the Iraq war
> than what is happening here.
>
ACK.

As already noted, all former Ethereal core maintainers are working on
the Wireshark project now.

So in my eyes you should send patches to the Wireshark list now.
> All with all I think it is very disappointing how this was and still is
> handled, it some how seems that core-developers distrust the other
> developers and users.
>
It wasn't about distrusting the developers. It was about having the
infrastructure ready before all the questions and inconsistencies are
rushing in.

I agree that the transition was poorly made for the exact reason you've
mentioned :-(

Regards, ULFL
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jeff.morriss at ulticom

Jun 8, 2006, 12:50 AM

Post #15 of 37 (5920 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Erwin Rol wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 17:06 -0500, Gerald Combs wrote:

[...]

> All with all I think it is very disappointing how this was and still is
> handled, it some how seems that core-developers distrust the other
> developers and users.

I have to admit I was little shocked at first, too. But I also doubt
Gerald and crew have meant to offend anyone nor do they distrust the
other developers and users. One problem that sometimes arises, I think,
is that if the leader of an open project such as this one starts a
discussion in a public forum about a name change or fork or whatever a
massive discussion ensues with everyone and their brother offering an
opinion. That's all fine and good but if the leader has already made up
his or her mind about it then everyone has just wasted their breath
and/or gets even more upset when the leader makes the change because
they think the leader has ignored their opinion. In the end, the
project isn't a democracy. People can discuss it before the change (if
it's announced beforehand) or after the change (as we are now), but how
much does it really matter which case is taken?

_______________________________________________
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http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


mailinglists at erwinrol

Jun 8, 2006, 12:54 AM

Post #16 of 37 (5933 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 09:42 +0200, Jaap Keuter wrote:
> Hi Erwin,
>
> Please see this reply on similar questions by John

Please note that you didn't answer a single question the first time and
didn't answer a single question this time.

> a) Ethereal(R) (the name) is ultimately owned by NIS Inc. Gerald couldn't
> hang on to that name, so he renamed the program. What NIS Inc. is doing
> with the name and the program is unknown.

This is not an answer on why the fork was done, why it was done in a
non-public way. It only answered a own created naming problem.

> b) Ethereal is 'dead in the water' (ready to be eaten by a shark :) )
> All core developers went to work on Wireshark, since they feel that is
> where the work continues. They have no more base to call home at
> ethereal.com.

All core-developers, seemed to have forgotten their user base and
non-core developers!

> Now it's just a matter of working the user community to come over the
> www.wireshark.org and enjoy the same fuzzy feeling. ;)

Yes Sir! The core-developers wish is our command!

> > First of all still nobody answered the questions people have on the why
> > this was done, just because Gerald got a new job is no reason.
> >
> > So what is the reason of this change?

Not answered!

> > Than it is good to know that all non-core-developers, those that only
> > help with pity little things like bug fixing and one or two little
> > dissectors, are not important enough to be informed about this before it
> > happens.

> > It would be interesting to know who those core-developers are, and who
> > is that "one notable exception" ?

Not answered!

> > Also as mentioned by someone else, it might be a good idea to put a
> > explanation on www.ethereal.com.

Not done!



_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


mailinglists at erwinrol

Jun 8, 2006, 1:06 AM

Post #17 of 37 (5948 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Well at last someone with the balls to admit they way things were
handled wasn't the smartest way to do it.

On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 09:49 +0200, Ulf Lamping wrote:
> Erwin Rol wrote:
> > First of all still nobody answered the questions people have on the why
> > this was done, just because Gerald got a new job is no reason.
> >
> Well, Gerald is the founder of the project. He had to leave the
> trademark, website and things at NSI (his former employer),
> with no admin access to the servers.

Can I conclude from that that is was just a personal "fight" between
Gerald and NSI that made him decide to move. Of course this puts up the
question what will happen when Gerald gets a new job after this one, do
we have a rename again? Maybe there should be looked at a way to make
"wireshark" more independent from problems like that.

> We don't know what NSI will do with Ethereal in the future, so it seemed
> a necessary thing to switch things now.

they are both GPL, and lot of people have copyrights on it. I doubt both
wireshark and ethereal will be developed at the same time.

> > So what is the reason of this change?
> >
> See above.

Well it still doesn't really explain why the fork was needed, i mean
Gerald could have worked out things in some other way too.


> > Than it is good to know that all non-core-developers, those that only
> > help with pity little things like bug fixing and one or two little
> > dissectors, are not important enough to be informed about this before it
> > happens.
> >
> I had a bad feeling about this too ...

And so you should! FOSS does also mean you have a community that wants
to know what is going on.

> I'm sorry about the feelings you have on this, and I can understand you
> with this.

> > It would be interesting to know who those core-developers are, and who
> > is that "one notable exception" ?
> >
> Basically all the ones that you'll find in the (public) commit mailing
> lists of wireshark (and formerly Ethereal).

> > Also as mentioned by someone else, it might be a good idea to put a
> > explanation on www.ethereal.com.
> >
> That's not possible for us, as Gerald has no longer the admin right to
> do this.

this really gives a bad taste of some hostile take over :-/

> I agree that the transition was poorly made for the exact reason you've
> mentioned :-(

Well shit happens, as long as someone cleans it up there is no real
problem in the end.

I would suggest to write down a bit more detailed announcement like you
did here and mail that to the ethereal lists and maybe to the larger
distribution lists like fedora, debian, suse etc. And put that
explanation also at the front page of the wireshark site (and hopefully
someone from ethereal.com will do something like that too).

Even if the start wasn't that good, it doesn't mean it has to stay like
that.

- Erwin



_______________________________________________
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Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


mailinglists at erwinrol

Jun 8, 2006, 1:21 AM

Post #18 of 37 (5940 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 15:50 +0800, Jeff Morriss wrote:
> Erwin Rol wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 17:06 -0500, Gerald Combs wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > All with all I think it is very disappointing how this was and still is
> > handled, it some how seems that core-developers distrust the other
> > developers and users.
>
> I have to admit I was little shocked at first, too. But I also doubt
> Gerald and crew have meant to offend anyone nor do they distrust the
> other developers and users.

I doubt that too, but sometimes certain actions are hard to explain
without the right information.

> One problem that sometimes arises, I think,
> is that if the leader of an open project such as this one starts a
> discussion in a public forum about a name change or fork or whatever a
> massive discussion ensues with everyone and their brother offering an
> opinion.

And that is a bad thing ? I think that's a vital part of a FOSS project.
The leaders also don't reject the help of those people. At least
informing the people would have giving them a choice to build an opinion
on the topic.

> That's all fine and good but if the leader has already made up
> his or her mind about it then everyone has just wasted their breath
> and/or gets even more upset when the leader makes the change because
> they think the leader has ignored their opinion.

Well the leader _did_ ignore all opinions, actually he ignored them so
bad that he didn't even bother ask for opinions.

> In the end, the
> project isn't a democracy. People can discuss it before the change (if
> it's announced beforehand) or after the change (as we are now), but how
> much does it really matter which case is taken?

so we should only "pay our tax" and shut up ? This is a great way to
cause a fork of a project.

So maybe instead of discussing a decision that is force onto us, we
maybe should now discusses on how we can prevent that the project
changes its name every time Gerald gets a new job, or otherwise has a
bad day.

- Erwin




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http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


jhoger at gmail

Jun 8, 2006, 1:26 AM

Post #19 of 37 (5930 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

This would have sufficed and obviated this entire thread (or at least
made it more on-point):

PROBLEM: The core developers no longer have control over the Ethereal
trademark and hosting
SOLUTION: The project is renamed to Wireshark (we like it so suck it
up, move on) and it is now hosted at wireshark.org

Less drama, less cycles wasted trying to figure out what is going
on... so yes, democracy or not, good communication matters on a
community developed project.

-- John.
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


ronniesahlberg at gmail

Jun 8, 2006, 1:33 AM

Post #20 of 37 (5941 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

I dont think anyone is happy with the situation. Ethereal was a very
good name but things happen.

Do not attack Gerald for the situation. Sometimes situations arise
that are outside your control. For that matter, Gerald has put in a
very significant amount of hard work building the new website and make
sure everything is ready and up and running and so that the transition
for everyone should be as easy as possible. That all services, wiki,
buildbots, nightly-builds, bugzilla etc are available from day one on
the new site. Rebuilding the new website is an immense amount of work
and was NOT just click a button and the magic happens.
Gerald put an immense amount of work to make this transition as easy
and painless as possible for everyone.

Our award will probably be public humiliation and execution of
character when the mature slashdot crew discovers this. No one is
looking forward to that.
Dont flame us here. Slashdot will take care of all flaming that is required.


No one is happy about the situation but it is as it is so lets make
the best of it. It is unfortunate but reality interfered.


Its just a name.


For myself nothing at all changes. the tool is just a hobby where i
hack code to gain intellectual stimulation for my own personal
entertainment. As such I dont care too much of the name or where it
is hosted.


If I were to choose I would have picked a shorter name with less
syllables that would be easier to pronounce. In particular if like me
speak english as a second/third language and have an accent so thick
none can understand you :-)

(colleagues ask you : how do you pronounce ethereal, like this or
like that (the two examples from the faq). I tell them how I
pronounce it. They go

"hmm, ok, well, I dont recall there were a third alternative in the
pronounciation guide. Are you absolutely sure that is how it is
pronounced?"

Those jokes do get old quite quickly after the first few hundred
times. Trust me I have expert knowledge in that area.)


ronnie s



On 6/8/06, Jeff Morriss <jeff.morriss [at] ulticom> wrote:
>
> Erwin Rol wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 17:06 -0500, Gerald Combs wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > All with all I think it is very disappointing how this was and still is
> > handled, it some how seems that core-developers distrust the other
> > developers and users.
>
> I have to admit I was little shocked at first, too. But I also doubt
> Gerald and crew have meant to offend anyone nor do they distrust the
> other developers and users. One problem that sometimes arises, I think,
> is that if the leader of an open project such as this one starts a
> discussion in a public forum about a name change or fork or whatever a
> massive discussion ensues with everyone and their brother offering an
> opinion. That's all fine and good but if the leader has already made up
> his or her mind about it then everyone has just wasted their breath
> and/or gets even more upset when the leader makes the change because
> they think the leader has ignored their opinion. In the end, the
> project isn't a democracy. People can discuss it before the change (if
> it's announced beforehand) or after the change (as we are now), but how
> much does it really matter which case is taken?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ethereal-dev mailing list
> Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
> http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev
>
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


ronniesahlberg at gmail

Jun 8, 2006, 1:43 AM

Post #21 of 37 (5944 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Very good and accurate description of the very unfortunate situation
that none is happy about.

Thanks for providing such a condenced and to the point explanation of
the situation.

You are good with words.


On 6/8/06, John R. <jhoger [at] gmail> wrote:
> This would have sufficed and obviated this entire thread (or at least
> made it more on-point):
>
> PROBLEM: The core developers no longer have control over the Ethereal
> trademark and hosting
> SOLUTION: The project is renamed to Wireshark (we like it so suck it
> up, move on) and it is now hosted at wireshark.org
>
> Less drama, less cycles wasted trying to figure out what is going
> on... so yes, democracy or not, good communication matters on a
> community developed project.
>
> -- John.
> _______________________________________________
> Ethereal-dev mailing list
> Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
> http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev
>
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


rvokal at redhat

Jun 8, 2006, 1:51 AM

Post #22 of 37 (5939 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 08:33 +0000, ronnie sahlberg wrote:
> That all services, wiki,
> buildbots, nightly-builds, bugzilla etc are available from day one on
> the new site. Rebuilding the new website is an immense amount of work
> and was NOT just click a button and the magic happens.

Are open ethereal bugs automatically moved to wireshark?
--
Radek Vok√°l <rvokal [at] redhat>

_______________________________________________
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Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


ronniesahlberg at gmail

Jun 8, 2006, 1:59 AM

Post #23 of 37 (5943 views)
Permalink
Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

As far as I know the answers to your two questions are YES and NO

Are they moved over to wireshark bugzilla: YES
Was it an automatic process (as opposed to a manual one): NO



On 6/8/06, Radek VokŠl <rvokal [at] redhat> wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 08:33 +0000, ronnie sahlberg wrote:
> > That all services, wiki,
> > buildbots, nightly-builds, bugzilla etc are available from day one on
> > the new site. Rebuilding the new website is an immense amount of work
> > and was NOT just click a button and the magic happens.
>
> Are open ethereal bugs automatically moved to wireshark?
> --
> Radek VokŠl <rvokal [at] redhat>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ethereal-dev mailing list
> Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
> http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev
>
_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


jeff.morriss at ulticom

Jun 8, 2006, 2:00 AM

Post #24 of 37 (5939 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

Radek Vok√°l wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 08:33 +0000, ronnie sahlberg wrote:
>> That all services, wiki,
>> buildbots, nightly-builds, bugzilla etc are available from day one on
>> the new site. Rebuilding the new website is an immense amount of work
>> and was NOT just click a button and the magic happens.
>
> Are open ethereal bugs automatically moved to wireshark?

It looks like all of them were copied though of course the copy was on
day N and changes have been made to the Ethereal bug database since then
so the two are now out of sync.

BTW, I was wrong earlier: my login/password worked fine on Wireshark's
bug database, no need to create a new one.

_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev


mailinglists at erwinrol

Jun 8, 2006, 2:09 AM

Post #25 of 37 (5944 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Major announcement [In reply to]

On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 17:00 +0800, Jeff Morriss wrote:
> Radek Vok√°l wrote:
> > On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 08:33 +0000, ronnie sahlberg wrote:
> >> That all services, wiki,
> >> buildbots, nightly-builds, bugzilla etc are available from day one on
> >> the new site. Rebuilding the new website is an immense amount of work
> >> and was NOT just click a button and the magic happens.
> >
> > Are open ethereal bugs automatically moved to wireshark?
>
> It looks like all of them were copied though of course the copy was on
> day N and changes have been made to the Ethereal bug database since then
> so the two are now out of sync.

This is why you should inform people _before_ doing a move like that!

- Erwin


_______________________________________________
Ethereal-dev mailing list
Ethereal-dev [at] ethereal
http://www.ethereal.com/mailman/listinfo/ethereal-dev

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