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XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25

 

 

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Dec 6, 2010, 12:44 PM

Post #51 of 61 (1692 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff wrote:
>> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
>>
>> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
>> towns collect this type of thing.
> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server too.

Or as a MythTV backend.

Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel they
need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need fast
backend systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need fast
mythjobqueue systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow backends).

My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.

You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.

Mike
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jan.ceuleers at computer

Dec 6, 2010, 12:45 PM

Post #52 of 61 (1692 views)
Permalink
Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On 06/12/10 21:21, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
>> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't
>> exactly environmentally sound...
>
> For what its worth, you're throwing away your old inefficient Pentium
> 4s, Athlons, and Athlon XPs for machines that idle at well under half
> the power consumption. It has been mentioned several times in this list,
> but Toms Hardware has an article detailing a high end i5, fully capable
> of decoding any video you may record or purchase for MythTV in software
> without any acceleration, that idles for under 25W. For people who leave
> their machines on all the time, you're _helping_ the environment.

Well in my case I'd be throwing away Via C7-based machines, which
already consume next to nothing.

But to be clear: I was trying to wryly give two messages in one:

- a software project dropping support for older hardware is going to
result in hardware being scrapped for reasons that are difficult to
defend from an environmental perspective.

- having said that, in the end it's the user of the above-mentioned
software doing the scrapping, and they do still have the option of
sticking with whatever version of the software still works with their
hardware.
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nick.rout at gmail

Dec 6, 2010, 1:37 PM

Post #53 of 61 (1692 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Eloy Paris <peloy [at] chapus> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 11:04:57AM -0700, Brian Wood wrote:
>
>> On Friday, December 03, 2010 10:34:14 am Steven Adeff wrote:
>>
>> > Legacy hardware is an issue, but I wonder how many people are still
>> > using it? My headaches with XvMC led me to suck it up and buy better
>> > CPU's, then when VDPAU arrived, to buy hardware that supported that.
>
> [...]
>
>> I suspect many folks are like me, I keep pretty up to date with the main
>> backend machine, but I still have a couple of AGP boxes in use as
>> frontends. I've replaced one of them with a Revo (very happy with that),
>> but I don't want to spend $400 to make everything VDPAU capable right
>> now.
>
> This pretty much summarizes my situation -- I am (was, see below)
> depending on XvMC for one frontend that has an AGP bus and cannot decode
> HD in software.
>
> The XvMC migration has already started for some people -- Mythbuntu
> disabled compile-time XvMC support in the latest auto-build packages
> because of the number of crash reports that are apparently attributed
> to XvMC. There was no heads up of this change in the Mythbuntu packages
> because Mythbuntu developers assumed that there are few users using
> XvMC. I found out that XvMC support was gone when my frontend wouldn't
> playback anything.

can you tell me at what point this occurred?
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peloy at chapus

Dec 6, 2010, 6:17 PM

Post #54 of 61 (1691 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

Hi Nick,

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 10:37:39AM +1300, Nick Rout wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Eloy Paris <peloy [at] chapus> wrote:
>
> > The XvMC migration has already started for some people -- Mythbuntu
> > disabled compile-time XvMC support in the latest auto-build
> > packages because of the number of crash reports that are apparently
> > attributed to XvMC. There was no heads up of this change in the
> > Mythbuntu packages because Mythbuntu developers assumed that there
> > are few users using XvMC. I found out that XvMC support was gone
> > when my frontend wouldn't playback anything.
>
> can you tell me at what point this occurred?

Sure; it happened at 1:0.24.0+fixes27305-0ubuntu1. Here's the changelog
entry for the change:

* Disable XvMC as it's causing crashes. VDPAU is better off in these
situations anyhow (LP: #660833)

Are you affected by this too? I tried to make the case with Mythbuntu
developers that it is easier for someone experiencing crashes attributed
to XvMC to search the web and find the solution (use a playback profile
that doesn't use XvMC) than for someone that uses XvMC and binary
packages to set up a local auto-build infrastructure just to build
packages with XvMC support locally enabled. Unfortunately it doesn't
look like I succeeded :-(

Cheers,

Eloy Paris.-

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mythtv at theseekerr

Dec 6, 2010, 6:40 PM

Post #55 of 61 (1693 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Michael T. Dean <mtdean [at] thirdcontact> wrote:
>  On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff wrote:
>>>
>>> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
>>>
>>> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
>>> towns collect this type of thing.
>>
>> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server too.
>
> Or as a MythTV backend.
>
> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast.  Only people who feel they need
> faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need fast backend
> systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need fast mythjobqueue
> systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow backends).

How big a job would it be to get mythjobqueue running on Windows? I
dual boot an i5 750 based system, and whilst mythjobqueue can make
good use of idle cores under Ubuntu, they go wasted in Windows.

- Chris
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dargllun at googlemail

Dec 7, 2010, 12:56 AM

Post #56 of 61 (1674 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On 06.12.2010 21:21, Steven Adeff wrote:
> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
> towns collect this type of thing.

Just as a side note: recycling of electronics is often done in 3rd world
countries under imensely inhumane and dangerous conditions. That is a
valid motivation to continue using old hardware as long as possible, and
any software is doing a Good Thing to support this.

regards
greg
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beww at beww

Dec 7, 2010, 6:06 AM

Post #57 of 61 (1663 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On Tuesday, December 07, 2010 01:56:36 am dargllun wrote:
> On 06.12.2010 21:21, Steven Adeff wrote:
> > in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
> > towns collect this type of thing.
>
> Just as a side note: recycling of electronics is often done in 3rd
> world countries under imensely inhumane and dangerous conditions.
> That is a valid motivation to continue using old hardware as long as
> possible, and any software is doing a Good Thing to support this.

Indeed, there has been a lot of publicity about this.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/ghana804/video/video_index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/02/25/computer-waste.htm

http://www.workingdirectory.net/posts/2006/59/

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Recycling-Gone-Bad-Where-Does-Our-High-
Tech-Waste-Go-38885.shtml

And many more.

Often the organizers of "recycling fairs" or municipalities who try to
recycle old gear are unaware of this, and sometimes have even been
promised (dishonestly) that the stuff will be recycled in the US in
accordance with all applicable laws.

It's very difficult to find a legitimate recycler, and often you must pay
for such services. In California this fee must be paid up front when the
equipment is initially purchased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Waste_Recycling_Fee

I agree that not having to toss it in the first place is the best
solution.

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beww at beww

Dec 7, 2010, 6:31 AM

Post #58 of 61 (1666 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On Monday, December 06, 2010 01:44:13 pm Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff wrote:
> >> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
> >>
> >> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler.
> >> Most towns collect this type of thing.
> >
> > yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server
> > too.
>
> Or as a MythTV backend.
>
> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel they
> need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need
> fast backend systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need
> fast mythjobqueue systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow
> backends).
>
> My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
> time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.
>
> You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.

The exception would be if you were using software encoding, but I
suspect not too many Myth users are doing this. ATSC and QAM signals are
already encoded, you just have to record the stream, and capture devices
with on-board mpeg2 encoding are pretty reasonably priced these days.

Of course simple frame grabbers are really cheap (as opposed to
"reasonably priced"), but you wind up paying in CPU cycles and
kilowatts.

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mtdean at thirdcontact

Dec 7, 2010, 10:14 AM

Post #59 of 61 (1661 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On 12/07/2010 09:31 AM, Brian Wood wrote:
> On Monday, December 06, 2010 01:44:13 pm Michael T. Dean wrote:
>> On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
>>> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server
>>> too.
>> Or as a MythTV backend.
>>
>> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel they
>> need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need
>> fast backend systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need
>> fast mythjobqueue systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow
>> backends).
>>
>> My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
>> time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.
>>
>> You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.
> The exception would be if you were using software encoding,

True. My unsaid implication is that there's not really any good reason
to use frame grabbers/software encoding in 2010. :)

(Sure, those OC people who feel that they can better tweak the quality
of their analog NTSC/PAL by using a software encoder which allows the
application of filters and more control over the encoding options can
continue to do so--but I think if they were to discover that the weak
point in the chain is not the ivtv encoding options, but the NTSC/PAL,
they might reconsider. Regardless, someone who chooses to use an
inefficient mechanism for recording TV will have to take responsibility
for making such hardware available and figuring out what to do with the
underpowered frontend systems they may have acquired. :)

> but I
> suspect not too many Myth users are doing this. ATSC and QAM signals are
> already encoded, you just have to record the stream, and capture devices
> with on-board mpeg2 encoding are pretty reasonably priced these days.

True.

> Of course simple frame grabbers are really cheap (as opposed to
> "reasonably priced"), but you wind up paying in CPU cycles and
> kilowatts.

Yes. And, really, if you do your shopping well, there's not much
difference between "cheap" and "reasonably priced".

Mike
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beww at beww

Dec 7, 2010, 10:32 AM

Post #60 of 61 (1652 views)
Permalink
Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:14:27 am Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 12/07/2010 09:31 AM, Brian Wood wrote:
> > On Monday, December 06, 2010 01:44:13 pm Michael T. Dean wrote:
> >> On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
> >>> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print
> >>> server too.
> >>
> >> Or as a MythTV backend.
> >>
> >> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel
> >> they need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or
> >> transcoding need fast backend systems (and, in truth, even they
> >> don't--they only need fast mythjobqueue systems, and can easily
> >> disable jobs on their slow backends).
> >>
> >> My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
> >> time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.
> >>
> >> You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.
> >
> > The exception would be if you were using software encoding,
>
> True. My unsaid implication is that there's not really any good
> reason to use frame grabbers/software encoding in 2010. :)
>
> (Sure, those OC people who feel that they can better tweak the
> quality of their analog NTSC/PAL by using a software encoder which
> allows the application of filters and more control over the encoding
> options can continue to do so--but I think if they were to discover
> that the weak point in the chain is not the ivtv encoding options,
> but the NTSC/PAL, they might reconsider. Regardless, someone who
> chooses to use an inefficient mechanism for recording TV will have
> to take responsibility for making such hardware available and
> figuring out what to do with the underpowered frontend systems they
> may have acquired. :)
>
> > but I
> >
> > suspect not too many Myth users are doing this. ATSC and QAM
> > signals are already encoded, you just have to record the stream,
> > and capture devices with on-board mpeg2 encoding are pretty
> > reasonably priced these days.
>
> True.
>
> > Of course simple frame grabbers are really cheap (as opposed to
> > "reasonably priced"), but you wind up paying in CPU cycles and
> > kilowatts.
>
> Yes. And, really, if you do your shopping well, there's not much
> difference between "cheap" and "reasonably priced".


By "cheap" I mean sold by no-name vendors, with horrible (if any)
documentation, non-existent support and with highly questionable Windows
only software.

You can make such hardware work, once you determine the chipset(s) used,
and figure out more about what you actually have purchased, but it's
generally not a fun task.

OTOH "reasonably priced" gear is well (or at least better) documented,
supported by a company you have at least heard of, and sells for a low
price.

So I agree, you can find a "reasonably priced" unit for the same cost as
a "cheap" one, if you shop well, as you pointed out.

Somewhere on the net is a wonderful pictorial listing of a lot of video
capture cards, with info about what chipsets they use etc., but of
course you may have to have bought the unit to be able to use that
guide.

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eriksjunk at laurelwoodart

Dec 9, 2010, 6:02 PM

Post #61 of 61 (1651 views)
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [In reply to]

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond [at] wagnerrp>wrote:

> Intel graphics are perfectly usable. If benchmark websites are to be
> believed, the X4500s should have plenty of power to use the OpenGL renderer,
> and the GMA HD units in i3 and i5 processors are actually comparable to the
> nVidia chips in ION systems.
>
> VA-API is only supported for the X4500HD/MHD, GMA HD and GMA 500 chipsets.
> Most people with existing Intel systems will have GMA 950, X3100, or X4500
> (non-HD) chipsets. None of these are supported by VA-API. Of the systems
> that are supported, the X4500HD and GMA HD chipsets are only found in high
> end systems, which are likely to already be able to decode everything using
> the software decoders, making VA-API nice but unnecessary. The only systems
> that will be made usable through VA-API are low end GMA 500 based ones.


For the record, I have a Celeron based sub-light notebook with a X4500MHD
chipset. The CPU doesn't even come close to decoding HD content on its own,
so I am definitely hoping for VA-API support in the future so that I can use
it to watch TV and recordings.

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