Mailing List Archive: Wikipedia: Foundation

Blackout at Italian Wikipedia

1 2 3 4 5 6

View All

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

meta.sj at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 6:36 PM

Post #76 of 126 (319 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Mark <delirium [at] hackish> wrote:

> On 10/5/11 1:50 AM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> > The WMF isn't allowed to lobby for or against legislation, per our 501c3
> > non-profit status in the US. This is not necessarily true for chapters
> > though, and definitely not true for the communities.
> >
> Somewhat true, but not a red line. The IRS gives this wonderfully vague
> formulation: "A 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but
> too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status".
>

Thanks, Mark - I was about to say this as well.

The WMF can engage in limited lobbying. I think we should do more than we
have to date, where essential to our mission. It would be harder to spread
free knowledge to everyone without the open web, which is regularly
endangered by short-sighted policies.

A 501c3 is prohibited from influencing elections for public office, but can
otherwise influence policy -- limited primarily in how much money or staff
time is spent on lobbying. The clearest test for "how much" is an
expenditures test.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=163394,00.html

As John V says, the IRS treats all policy lobbying the same here, national
or international.

Phil Nash:
> I don't think that there is a distinction between "lobbying" and
"campaigning".

One thing a 501c3 is prohibited from doing is influencing elections for
public office in a partisan way, including supporting or opposing any
specific politician.

CLPI has a good practical summary of the law in this area:
http://www.clpi.org/the-law/faq

Sam.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

jayvdb at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:14 PM

Post #77 of 126 (317 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

There is a petition with over 1430 signatures in 24 hours

http://twitter.com/#!/jayvdb/status/121435650057707520

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

aaron.adrignola at gmail

Oct 4, 2011, 9:25 PM

Post #78 of 126 (318 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

I'm sure those on this list are familiar with the de.wikipedia poll on the
proposed image filter with its strong outcome on a particular side of the
debate. I am quite concerned about the precedent that it.wikipedia is being
allowed to set. Should I expect that de.wikipedia would be allowed to stage
a similar "blackout" should the image filter be implemented against their
wishes, with the goal of protesting perceived or potential censorship?
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

o.nee at t-online

Oct 4, 2011, 9:33 PM

Post #79 of 126 (324 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Am 05.10.2011 06:25, schrieb Aaron Adrignola:
> Should I expect that de.wikipedia would be allowed to stage
> a similar "blackout" should the image filter be implemented against their
> wishes, with the goal of protesting perceived or potential censorship?
You can pretty much count on that. And what'cha gonna do then? De-sysop
people who
carry out the will of the very community that elected them to be sysops
in the first place?
Risk a fork of the third-largest Wikimedia project and a relatively
large (and wealthy) WMF
chapter? Like it or not, while the WMF may own the infrastructure and
have a vaguely defined
ownership when it comes to the projects, all that counts for nothing if
you don't have the
community to fill this with life. So try to keep calm and don't come up
with an 'emergency'
heavy-handed response that you're going to regret.

Regards,
Oliver

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

thogol at googlemail

Oct 5, 2011, 12:21 AM

Post #80 of 126 (316 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

2011/10/5 Samuel Klein <meta.sj [at] gmail>:
>
> CLPI has a good practical summary of the law in this area:
> http://www.clpi.org/the-law/faq

interesting:

Q. If a charity incorporated in this country has an Australian (for
example) affiliate that lobbies (according to United States
definitions of lobbying) and the affiliate shows up on the IRS 990
Form would its lobbying expenditures count against expenditure limits
in this country?
A. Yes, the affiliate's lobbying expenditures would count against the
expenditure limits of the charity incorporated in this country.

Do WMF chapters count as affiliates? (Does "charity" mean a 501(c)(3) thing?)

Th.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

emijrp at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 12:33 AM

Post #81 of 126 (319 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

You heard about consensus and anti-censorship actions: all is allowed with
community polls as seen in Italian Wikipedia yesterday.

German Wikipedia, go ahead and blank your wiki is WMF try to force the image
filtering on you. The same for other Wikipedias that don't agree with the
filter. Enjoy the Italian precedent support, WMF.

2011/10/5 Aaron Adrignola <aaron.adrignola [at] gmail>

> I'm sure those on this list are familiar with the de.wikipedia poll on the
> proposed image filter with its strong outcome on a particular side of the
> debate. I am quite concerned about the precedent that it.wikipedia is
> being
> allowed to set. Should I expect that de.wikipedia would be allowed to
> stage
> a similar "blackout" should the image filter be implemented against their
> wishes, with the goal of protesting perceived or potential censorship?
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

saintonge at telus

Oct 5, 2011, 1:46 AM

Post #82 of 126 (314 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 10/04/11 6:03 AM, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
> The question is that the server are in USA, but for the penal law it's
> sufficient to edit from the Italian country.
>
> I am in a special situation because I live in Switzerland and I
> publish in USA servers, but for the main numbers of Italian editors
> the question is not so easy.
>
>
If they are so fearful they can use pseudonyms. They would then need to
get a legal order from a US court to identify the users.

Ray

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

berialima at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 2:06 AM

Post #83 of 126 (320 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Not really Ray. And even so, the problem is not the fear of getting
arrested, is more the cost of a law suit. In Italy (as in some other Latin
countries) law suits are expensive (really, REALLY expensives) and take
forever to end.
_____
*B�ria Lima*
<http://wikimedia.pt/>(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde � dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somat�rio de todo o conhecimento humano. � isso o que estamos a
fazer <http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Nossos_projetos>.*

On 5 October 2011 09:46, Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:

> On 10/04/11 6:03 AM, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
> > The question is that the server are in USA, but for the penal law it's
> > sufficient to edit from the Italian country.
> >
> > I am in a special situation because I live in Switzerland and I
> > publish in USA servers, but for the main numbers of Italian editors
> > the question is not so easy.
> >
> >
> If they are so fearful they can use pseudonyms. They would then need to
> get a legal order from a US court to identify the users.
>
> Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

tobias.oelgarte at googlemail

Oct 5, 2011, 2:33 AM

Post #84 of 126 (316 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Am 05.10.2011 10:46, schrieb Ray Saintonge:
> On 10/04/11 6:03 AM, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
>> The question is that the server are in USA, but for the penal law it's
>> sufficient to edit from the Italian country.
>>
>> I am in a special situation because I live in Switzerland and I
>> publish in USA servers, but for the main numbers of Italian editors
>> the question is not so easy.
>>
>>
> If they are so fearful they can use pseudonyms. They would then need to
> get a legal order from a US court to identify the users.
>
> Ray
>
But what about Italian re-users? If it.wikipedia does decide to edit
anonymously and someone in Italy re-uses their content, then he might be
in trouble. Which means that it will end up in additional restrictions,
hurting the mission of the project, even if maybe not self affected.

nya~

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

saintonge at telus

Oct 5, 2011, 3:00 AM

Post #85 of 126 (315 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 10/05/11 2:06 AM, Béria Lima wrote:
> Not really Ray. And even so, the problem is not the fear of getting
> arrested, is more the cost of a law suit. In Italy (as in some other Latin
> countries) law suits are expensive (really, REALLY expensives) and take
> forever to end.

Lawsuits can be expensive anywhere, and they can be started by anyone
who believes that he has been injured. It does not matter if that belief
is legitimate. It does not matter if you have gone through extraordinary
efforts to remain within the law. SLAPP suits (strategic lawsuit against
public participation), and some of these suits are no better than
criminal extortion. Conceding to them means the bullies have won.

Yes, by all appearances, the proposed Italian law is evil and fascist,
but there are more strategies available than the suicide strategy chosen
by the Italian Wikipedia. They are not the only group in Italy opposing
this, so there is plenty of room for common cause. If the law passes,
there will certainly be others willing to take this matter through the
courts.

Ray

> On 5 October 2011 09:46, Ray Saintonge<saintonge [at] telus> wrote:
>> On 10/04/11 6:03 AM, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
>>> The question is that the server are in USA, but for the penal law it's
>>> sufficient to edit from the Italian country.
>>>
>>> I am in a special situation because I live in Switzerland and I
>>> publish in USA servers, but for the main numbers of Italian editors
>>> the question is not so easy.
>> If they are so fearful they can use pseudonyms. They would then need to
>> get a legal order from a US court to identify the users.
>>
>> Ray
>>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

church.of.emacs.ml at googlemail

Oct 5, 2011, 3:20 AM

Post #86 of 126 (317 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 10/05/2011 06:25 AM, Aaron Adrignola wrote:
> I'm sure those on this list are familiar with the de.wikipedia poll on the
> proposed image filter with its strong outcome on a particular side of the
> debate. I am quite concerned about the precedent that it.wikipedia is being
> allowed to set. Should I expect that de.wikipedia would be allowed to stage
> a similar "blackout" should the image filter be implemented against their
> wishes, with the goal of protesting perceived or potential censorship?

Are you seriously comparing that italien law to the proposed image filter?

Are you aware of the principle of proportionality? What might be okay to
do against a law that would kill Wikipedia is different from what is
okay to do against piece of software that would most likely have only
minor effects for the reader.

--Tobias

Attachments:

signature.asc (0.26 KB)

morton.thomas at googlemail

Oct 5, 2011, 3:31 AM

Post #87 of 126 (315 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 5 October 2011 11:20, church.of.emacs.ml <
church.of.emacs.ml [at] googlemail> wrote:

> On 10/05/2011 06:25 AM, Aaron Adrignola wrote:
> > I'm sure those on this list are familiar with the de.wikipedia poll on
> the
> > proposed image filter with its strong outcome on a particular side of the
> > debate. I am quite concerned about the precedent that it.wikipedia is
> being
> > allowed to set. Should I expect that de.wikipedia would be allowed to
> stage
> > a similar "blackout" should the image filter be implemented against their
> > wishes, with the goal of protesting perceived or potential censorship?
>
> Are you seriously comparing that italien law to the proposed image filter?
>
> Are you aware of the principle of proportionality? What might be okay to
> do against a law that would kill Wikipedia is different from what is
> okay to do against piece of software that would most likely have only
> minor effects for the reader.
>

A quote:

The problem, of course, with the principle of proportionality is that
usually it is invoked by one of the stakeholders, who blithely misses the
issue - which is that they are disagreeing over the consequences.

The point being; for these hypothetical Wikipedians running such a protest
the consequence of an image filter may not match your own view...

Tom
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

midom.lists at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 4:00 AM

Post #88 of 126 (311 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

> Regardless, what's done is done, for
> the moment.

Except that WMF as steward of the open information can roll any of that blackout crap back.
Primary mission is spreading the knowledge, and now it.wikipedia obviously fails at it.

Domas
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

jalo75 at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 4:36 AM

Post #89 of 126 (313 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

>
> Except that WMF as steward of the open information can roll any of that
> blackout crap back.
>
> Domas
>

There's no need to be so drastic. If WMF wishes the block to be removed, it
simply can ask it and we'll do. In a couple of minutes. We're not moving war
against WMF.

Howerer, at the moment WMF seems to support this choice
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

davidrichfield at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 4:38 AM

Post #90 of 126 (312 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:
>> Regardless, what's done is done, for
>> the moment.
>
> Except that WMF as steward of the open information can roll any of that blackout crap back.
> Primary mission is spreading the knowledge, and now it.wikipedia obviously fails at it.

it.wikipedia is not "failing" at spreading knowledge. it.wikipedia is
taking all steps it can to make sure that it can succeed at that aim
in future.

--
David Richfield
e^(�i)+1=0

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

craig at halo-17

Oct 5, 2011, 5:12 AM

Post #91 of 126 (314 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:58:51 -0700
> From: Sue Gardner <sgardner [at] wikimedia>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Blackout at Italian Wikipedia
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> <foundation-l [at] lists>
> Message-ID:
> <CAGZ0=LN0xLr-0A0AJOCu-7eX1bKQfYnVV5xETQY5uY9LqduoSw [at] mail
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation first heard about this a few hours ago: we don't
> have a lot of details yet. Jay is gathering information and working on a
> statement now.
>
> It seems obvious though that the proposed law would hurt freedom of
> expression in Italy, and therefore it's entirely reasonable for the Italian
> Wikipedians to oppose it. The Wikimedia Foundation will support their
> position.
>
> The question of whether blocking access to Wikipedia is the best possible
> way to draw people's attention to this issue is of course open for debate
> and reasonable people can disagree. My understanding is that the decision
> was taken via a good community process. Regardless, what's done is done,
> for
> the moment.
>
> Thanks,
> Sue

Of late I've often round reasons to be critical of the choices the WMF has
made, but in this case you've made the best choice possible - supporting the
community on it.wikipedia in a decision that they've come to as a group,
even though that decision is controversial in some places. Bravo Sue, and
Bravo WMF.

Cheers,
Craig
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

kikkocristian at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 6:26 AM

Post #92 of 126 (318 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

2011/10/5 David Richfield <davidrichfield [at] gmail>:
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> Regardless, what's done is done, for
>>> the moment.
>>
>> Except that WMF as steward of the open information can roll any of that blackout crap back.
>> Primary mission is spreading the knowledge, and now it.wikipedia obviously fails at it.
>
> it.wikipedia is not "failing" at spreading knowledge. it.wikipedia is
> taking all steps it can to make sure that it can succeed at that aim
> in future.

This law proposal has been around in Italy for quite a long time. If
I'm correct it's about three years.
Last year there has been a period when the law was in the mainstream
media (while it was also dubbed as "legge ammazza-blog", "blog-killer
law"), but then (for other political reasons) the topic was forgot,
the law proposal eliminated from discussion in parliament, and nobody
discussed it much more.
At that time (~ 15 months ago) Wikimedia Italia issued a press
communique and asked on it.wiki Village Pump if there were Wikipedians
who would like to sign it to show their support. That communique
collected circa 300 signatures. There also was a discussion about
putting a link to it in the sitenotice, there was a large majority (>
2/3 of many voters) but given the fact that it seemed to be a strong
move, and in the meanwhile the topic "faded away", nothing was done in
the end.

In the last few days, though, the law proposal returned in the
mainstream and it is going to be discussed in parliament today and in
the next days. This time the community itself discussed and
autonomously produced the communique you see now. It was put in the
village pump and after two days of discussion where an *outstanding*
majority (I will say almost unanimous) agreed to lock the site and put
the communique in his place, we have arrived to the current
situation.So it has not been neither an easy or quick decision.

Hope that helps to contextualize the situation.

Cristian

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

erik at wikimedia

Oct 5, 2011, 6:53 AM

Post #93 of 126 (313 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 4:00 AM, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:
> Except that WMF as steward of the open information can roll any of that blackout crap back.

The only thing we truly could do is restore read access. But if the
it.wikipedia community really wants to strike, there's very little we
can do to stop them. :)

Wikis are great for organizing work. By necessary extension, they are
also great for organizing its discontinuation.

--
Erik M�ller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

midom.lists at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 7:03 AM

Post #94 of 126 (312 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

> The only thing we truly could do is restore read access. But if the
> it.wikipedia community really wants to strike, there's very little we
> can do to stop them. :)

I sure agree with that. There're plenty of ways to inflict pain without terminating the service entirely.
Editor strike means not editing, it doesn't mean full service downtime.

Full-page banners or whatever else may work, of course.

When writers guild went on strike, we could still watch old stuff, right, it wasn't pulled ;-)
If doctors go on strike, people are still allowed to live, retroactive disease correction is not done...

How do we deal with an editor who starts deleting his contributions out of spite?

Domas
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

millosh at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 7:34 AM

Post #95 of 126 (311 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 16:03, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:
> When writers guild went on strike, we could still watch old stuff, right, it wasn't pulled ;-)
> If doctors go on strike, people are still allowed to live, retroactive disease correction is not done...

When truck drivers go on strike in France, you are not able to drive
your car there.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

matthewrbowker.wiki at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 7:36 AM

Post #96 of 126 (309 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

Of all the ways to protest the law, I think it.wp chose the most noticeable way. If something like a sitenotice were implemented, many people would just scroll past it. Even if not, they would only read it a couple times, because people access Wikipedia for the content. OTOH, just locking
Editing privileges would only impact the people who are already aware of the proposed law. The protest would have no impact on the readership.

Just my two cents

Matthew Bowker
http://enwp.org/User:Matthewrbowker
Sent from my iPod

On Oct 5, 2011, at 8:03, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:

>> The only thing we truly could do is restore read access. But if the
>> it.wikipedia community really wants to strike, there's very little we
>> can do to stop them. :)
>
> I sure agree with that. There're plenty of ways to inflict pain without terminating the service entirely.
> Editor strike means not editing, it doesn't mean full service downtime.
>
> Full-page banners or whatever else may work, of course.
>
> When writers guild went on strike, we could still watch old stuff, right, it wasn't pulled ;-)
> If doctors go on strike, people are still allowed to live, retroactive disease correction is not done...
>
> How do we deal with an editor who starts deleting his contributions out of spite?
>
> Domas
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

teofilowiki at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 7:57 AM

Post #97 of 126 (310 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

> Of late I've often round reasons to be critical of the choices the WMF has
> made, but in this case you've made the best choice possible - supporting the
> community on it.wikipedia in a decision that they've come to as a group,
> even though that decision is controversial in some places. �Bravo Sue, and
> Bravo WMF.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig

I agree. I have been critical of a lot of things lately, but this last
statement by Sue Gardner was good.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

de10011 at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 8:16 AM

Post #98 of 126 (313 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

I am sure other people can fill in, but I heard there has been some movement
within the parliament in reaction. They are reconsidering a portion of that
law that might affect us, or so I have been told.

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/it/news.php?newsid=157111

Can someone clarify?

Regards
Theo

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 8:06 PM, User:Matthewrbowker <
matthewrbowker.wiki [at] gmail> wrote:

> Of all the ways to protest the law, I think it.wp chose the most noticeable
> way. If something like a sitenotice were implemented, many people would
> just scroll past it. Even if not, they would only read it a couple times,
> because people access Wikipedia for the content. OTOH, just locking
> Editing privileges would only impact the people who are already aware of
> the proposed law. The protest would have no impact on the readership.
>
> Just my two cents
>
> Matthew Bowker
> http://enwp.org/User:Matthewrbowker
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Oct 5, 2011, at 8:03, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists [at] gmail> wrote:
>
> >> The only thing we truly could do is restore read access. But if the
> >> it.wikipedia community really wants to strike, there's very little we
> >> can do to stop them. :)
> >
> > I sure agree with that. There're plenty of ways to inflict pain without
> terminating the service entirely.
> > Editor strike means not editing, it doesn't mean full service downtime.
> >
> > Full-page banners or whatever else may work, of course.
> >
> > When writers guild went on strike, we could still watch old stuff, right,
> it wasn't pulled ;-)
> > If doctors go on strike, people are still allowed to live, retroactive
> disease correction is not done...
> >
> > How do we deal with an editor who starts deleting his contributions out
> of spite?
> >
> > Domas
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l [at] lists
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

wikipedia at frontier

Oct 5, 2011, 9:21 AM

Post #99 of 126 (311 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

On 10/5/2011 7:03 AM, Domas Mituzas wrote:
>> The only thing we truly could do is restore read access. But if the
>> it.wikipedia community really wants to strike, there's very little we
>> can do to stop them. :)
> I sure agree with that. There're plenty of ways to inflict pain without terminating the service entirely.
> Editor strike means not editing, it doesn't mean full service downtime.
When labor unions go on strike, they do more than not show up for work.
They form picket lines and take other actions designed to obstruct
activity so that company operations cannot proceed. Taken to its logical
conclusion, if the Italian Wikipedia community collectively wants to go
on strike, then what they have done is apply the full range of tools to
carry that out.
> How do we deal with an editor who starts deleting his contributions out of spite?
In contrast to strike actions, in those countries that recognize the
right to organize collectively, sabotage and destruction are generally
considered illegal and beyond the pale of acceptable behavior. Certainly
we should not support anyone in the Italian community who thought it was
a good idea to vandalize or delete portions of the encyclopedia as part
of their protest. But I don't think someone acting out of spite is a
good comparison, since it seems pretty clear that this action is not
being taken out of spite. I am happy to keep my trust in the Italian
Wikipedia community, that it is in the best position to judge whether
this protest is needed, what measures are appropriate to the situation,
and how long to carry on with it.

--Michael Snow

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

emijrp at gmail

Oct 5, 2011, 9:45 AM

Post #100 of 126 (309 views)
Permalink

Re: Blackout at Italian Wikipedia [In reply to]

2011/10/5 Michael Snow <wikipedia [at] frontier>

> On 10/5/2011 7:03 AM, Domas Mituzas wrote:
> >> The only thing we truly could do is restore read access. But if the
> >> it.wikipedia community really wants to strike, there's very little we
> >> can do to stop them. :)
> > I sure agree with that. There're plenty of ways to inflict pain without
> terminating the service entirely.
> > Editor strike means not editing, it doesn't mean full service downtime.
> When labor unions go on strike, they do more than not show up for work.
> They form picket lines and take other actions designed to obstruct
> activity so that company operations cannot proceed. Taken to its logical
> conclusion, if the Italian Wikipedia community collectively wants to go
> on strike, then what they have done is apply the full range of tools to
> carry that out.
>

Looks like you forget that as exists a right to strike, there is a right to
work. Italian Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
Yesterday, today? Sure.

> > How do we deal with an editor who starts deleting his contributions out
> of spite?
> In contrast to strike actions, in those countries that recognize the
> right to organize collectively, sabotage and destruction are generally
> considered illegal and beyond the pale of acceptable behavior. Certainly
> we should not support anyone in the Italian community who thought it was
> a good idea to vandalize or delete portions of the encyclopedia as part
> of their protest.

Oh yeah, just like worst actions exist (vandalism) we have to respect
medium-bad (?) ones (blanking the entire site).

> But I don't think someone acting out of spite is a
> good comparison, since it seems pretty clear that this action is not
> being taken out of spite. I am happy to keep my trust in the Italian
> Wikipedia community, that it is in the best position to judge whether
> this protest is needed, what measures are appropriate to the situation,
> and how long to carry on with it.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l [at] lists
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

1 2 3 4 5 6

View All

Index | Next | Previous | View Threaded

Interested in having your list archived? Contact Gossamer Threads