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Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

 

 

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z at mzmcbride

Feb 28, 2010, 3:26 PM

Post #1 of 55 (2971 views)
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Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on
the English Wikipedia?

Thanks,

MZMcBride
z [at] mzmcbride



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geniice at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 4:52 PM

Post #2 of 55 (2924 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 28 February 2010 23:26, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:
> It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on
> the English Wikipedia?
>
> Thanks,
>
> MZMcBride
> z [at] mzmcbride

Technically I think since about Feb 4th the answer is that Danese
Cooper hasn't made it happen.

--
geni

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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 7:16 PM

Post #3 of 55 (2928 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 03:26 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
> It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on
> the English Wikipedia?
>

If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note
before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my
talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day.
There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help
either the coding or the communicating about it.

As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development
progress in detail here:

http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157

As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be
deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once
we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how
close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.

The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
different hardware. That site is currently running on the production
cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there
without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.

Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working
to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production
environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test
there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia.
Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a
lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while.

As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.

William


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z at mzmcbride

Feb 28, 2010, 7:32 PM

Post #4 of 55 (2923 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

William Pietri wrote:
> If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note
> before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my
> talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day.
> There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help
> either the coding or the communicating about it.

When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or
pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being
wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can
talk about which forum should be used and so forth.

> As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development
> progress in detail here:
>
> http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157

The primary issue with that site is that any sense of deadline is a
ever-shifting goalpost. "Launch on English Wikipedia" has a target date of
when? It looks like it was added December 16, though that information wasn't
particularly easy to figure out. Which, of course, begs the question why an
entirely separate layer of software was added to this project in the first
place when Bugzilla was already available and familiar.

> As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be
> deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once
> we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how
> close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.

What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009.
All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly
all of them are in the "Deliver" phase, which reads to me as though they
haven't been done.

I did get the software to output "Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0
points completed)" for the user JAS and the "Done" button at the top opened
an empty box.

Point to me what I'm missing.

> The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
> different hardware. That site is currently running on the production
> cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there
> without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.

Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking
about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the
servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound?

> As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
> of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
> can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.

When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
running the project?

MZMcBride
z [at] mzmcbride



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nawrich at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 7:38 PM

Post #5 of 55 (2928 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:32 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:
> William Pietri wrote:
>> If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note
>> before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my
>> talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day.
>> There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help
>> either the coding or the communicating about it.
>
> When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or
> pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being
> wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can
> talk about which forum should be used and so forth.
>
>> As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development
>> progress in detail here:
>>
>> http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157
>
> The primary issue with that site is that any sense of deadline is a
> ever-shifting goalpost. "Launch on English Wikipedia" has a target date of
> when? It looks like it was added December 16, though that information wasn't
> particularly easy to figure out. Which, of course, begs the question why an
> entirely separate layer of software was added to this project in the first
> place when Bugzilla was already available and familiar.
>
>> As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be
>> deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once
>> we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how
>> close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.
>
> What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009.
> All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly
> all of them are in the "Deliver" phase, which reads to me as though they
> haven't been done.
>
> I did get the software to output "Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0
> points completed)" for the user JAS and the "Done" button at the top opened
> an empty box.
>
> Point to me what I'm missing.
>
>> The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
>> different hardware. That site is currently running on the production
>> cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there
>> without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.
>
> Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking
> about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the
> servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound?
>
>> As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
>> of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
>> can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.
>
> When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
> is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
> running the project?
>
> MZMcBride
> z [at] mzmcbride
>
>
>


Have to ask, what disruptively unilateral actions are you
contemplating if you don't get exactly the action you seek? Start up
another website to collaborate on how to circumvent those lazy jamokes
who aren't running at your speed? Coordinate the deletion of the rest
of the wiki?

On behalf of whom do you speak, to make demands of someone who doesn't
work for you? Other people share your frustration, but perhaps they
were wise when they didn't take to the mailing lists to swear at the
developers.

Nathan

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mrzmanwiki at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 8:10 PM

Post #6 of 55 (2925 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 2/28/2010 10:32 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
> William Pietri wrote:
>> As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
>> of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
>> can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.
>
> When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
> is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
> running the project?
>

I second this. Are William and Howie just under contract indefinitely
until FlaggedRevs is finally "ready"? Who are they responsible to, and
why is that person apparently not giving them any sort of priorities
(like, creating a plan or a deadline)?

Why is there such little transparency in this whole process? Rather than
use the normal bug tracker that all other MediaWiki developers use and
that the community is used to, they're using some entirely separate one,
hosted on a 3rd party website. As far as I can tell, there's only been
one unprompted communication with the community regarding this - the
techblog post in January that had little new information.

Its been more than 4 months, and we haven't been able to get even a
vague timeline yet. IMO, setting a deadline, missing it, and explaining
why it was missed is better than not setting a deadline until you know
you can meet it (which kind of defeats the purpose of setting it).

--
Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 8:10 PM

Post #7 of 55 (2927 views)
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Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
> The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
> different hardware.

OK, but hasn't it been *months*?! Isn't there a dedicated team for this
rollout?! What work are they actually doing? What relevant SVN commits
from this team have I missed?

- -Mike

PS: FWIW, I agree that hiding your progress tracker on a third-party
site that sucks pretty bad is not helpful.
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aphaia at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 8:18 PM

Post #8 of 55 (2926 views)
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Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login
took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once
it "Godot". FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to
realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait
for in a less pain.

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Mike.lifeguard <mike.lifeguard [at] gmail> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
>> The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
>> different hardware.
>
> OK, but hasn't it been *months*?! Isn't there a dedicated team for this
> rollout?! What work are they actually doing? What relevant SVN commits
> from this team have I missed?
>
> - -Mike
>
> PS: FWIW, I agree that hiding your progress tracker on a third-party
> site that sucks pretty bad is not helpful.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkuLPjoACgkQst0AR/DaKHt+gwCgo8dVyxHBALMY3Ppxb5w0GZ8x
> eLoAn3tE56CX3tpCUUctqKwibmsgGc8h
> =gkOb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 8:24 PM

Post #9 of 55 (2920 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 07:32 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
> When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or
> pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being
> wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can
> talk about which forum should be used and so forth.
>

There's no need to persuade me of the value of Flagged Revisions. I
already think the project is important, or I wouldn't be working on it.

My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My
long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress.
You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is
why I mentioned it.


> What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009.
> All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly
> all of them are in the "Deliver" phase, which reads to me as though they
> haven't been done.
>
> I did get the software to output "Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0
> points completed)" for the user JAS and the "Done" button at the top opened
> an empty box.
>
> Point to me what I'm missing.
>

Seeing a "Deliver" button means that Aaron, the developer, thinks the
item is done, but it is not yet visible to others. Once we have a test
server where people can look at things, then they are delivered. When
some non-developer (e.g., me, or Howie Fung of the usability team)
verifies that they are actually done, only then do we mark them as done.


> Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking
> about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the
> servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound?
>

Like a recipe for breaking one of the world's top ten websites, an
outcome I would rather avoid.

There have been substantial changes to the code. We don't want to break
either the English or German Wikipedias, so we test before shipping.
This is not an unusual approach to running a production web site.
"Measure twice, cut once," works even better in software than carpentry.

Also, the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least
judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site. The usability
team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what motivated this
latest round of changes.

As important as it is to get FlaggedRevs out for the community to try, I
think it's even more important to release it in a form that will yield a
successful trial. If we release something that's not up to snuff, the
community may reject it for reasons that have nothing to do with the
actual idea, an outcome nobody wants.


> When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
> is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
> running the project?
>

There is no specific deadline. The approach I thought best for this
project was one where we measure actual progress and use that to project
dates. (That's why I used Pivotal Tracker, a tool designed for tracking
and measuring real, fine-grained progress.) I explain more here:

http://techblog.wikimedia.org/2010/01/flagged-revisions-your-questions-answered/

It's a pretty standard approach in any of the [[Agile Software
Development]] processes.

As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I
ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity. If
everybody feels the new version is ready to go live, then I am not aware
of any impediment to public release right after that decision. If, as
seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be able to
estimate development time and project dates.

As to consequences, we all serve at the pleasure of Danese Cooper most
directly, and to Erik, Sue, and the board from there, so if they think
we're doing a bad job I'm sure they'll deal with that.

However, in my experience everybody involved is smart, talented, and
very committed to the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation. Everybody is
also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority project.
Menacing people like that with "consequences" mainly serves to destroy
motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this
done, I ask you not to do that again.

William


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thomas.dalton at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 8:43 PM

Post #10 of 55 (2926 views)
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Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 28 February 2010 20:24, William Pietri <william [at] scissor> wrote:
> Menacing people like that with "consequences" mainly serves to destroy
> motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this
> done, I ask you not to do that again.

Nobody has done any menacing. He asked what the consequences would be,
he didn't threaten consequences. (That there will be consequences if
you don't do your job should go without saying. Those consequences
will come from your boss, not the community, though.)

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z at mzmcbride

Feb 28, 2010, 8:59 PM

Post #11 of 55 (2922 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

I finally figured out that the "view history" button in Pivotal Tracker is
where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at,
Aaron appears to have completed them "2 months ago." But they're not marked
as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up
exactly?

(And isn't this yet another reason you should be using something less
brain-dead than Bugzilla. I never thought it was possible to find worse
issue tracking software, but leave it to Wikimedia....)

William Pietri wrote:
> There's no need to persuade me of the value of Flagged Revisions. I
> already think the project is important, or I wouldn't be working on it.
>
> My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My
> long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress.
> You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is
> why I mentioned it.

Are you a programmer? The programmers seem to be the ones who have done
their jobs here. This isn't a development issue by the looks of it, it's a
management issue. And I'm "swearing" at the management (see e-mail subject
line).

> There have been substantial changes to the code. We don't want to break
> either the English or German Wikipedias, so we test before shipping.
> This is not an unusual approach to running a production web site.
> "Measure twice, cut once," works even better in software than carpentry.

Actually, historically that hasn't been the trend. The site has been broken
countless times, not that that's a goal anyone should be aiming for. I
suppose it's as good an excuse as any for the complete mishandling of this
project, though. (In your defense, this was a clusterfuck before you
arrived, so you don't get the full blame here.)

> Also, the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least
> judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site.

I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs
site <http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org> and I've been the one doing the
admin promotions on there since September 2009.

Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about?

> The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what
> motivated this latest round of changes.

Where are the comments from the Usability team? I've been idling in their
IRC channel for the past few months. Here's every mention of "flagged" that
I have: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/184170/

Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing?
I'm curious.

And shouldn't I be able to see all of this Usability work at your Pivotal
Tracker? I don't.

> There is no specific deadline. The approach I thought best for this
> project was one where we measure actual progress and use that to project
> dates. (That's why I used Pivotal Tracker, a tool designed for tracking
> and measuring real, fine-grained progress.)

I can't say unequivocally that Pivotal Tracker is the worst issue tracker to
exist, but it's certainly the most user-unfriendly I've personally ever
encountered.

> As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I
> ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity.

You "ardently hope"? Aren't you the person in charge of this project? If
not, what exactly do you do day-to-day and who is in charge of getting
FlaggedRevisions enabled on the English Wikipedia?

> If everybody feels the new version is ready to go live, then I am not
> aware of any impediment to public release right after that decision.

Unlike the impediments you've been throwing up in this thread and that
others have been throwing up over the past months and years? Originally it
was getting the software mostly finished. That happened, and Erik announced
that any project could request FlaggedRevisions. Then it became an issue of
user interface (and oh-my-god usability). Then a hardware issue (though that
turned out to be mostly, if not completely, bunk). I wonder what the next
boogeyman will be. Perhaps http://bit.ly/djkLDa ?

> If, as seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be
> able to estimate development time and project dates.

You've said in this very thread that "there is no specific deadline." Now
you're saying the opposite? Estimating "development time and project dates"
sounds like a deadline to me. Why can't we have one of those? Why can't
there be a specific date by which FlaggedRevisions will be enabled on the
English Wikipedia. That's what I'm after.

> As to consequences, we all serve at the pleasure of Danese Cooper most
> directly, and to Erik, Sue, and the board from there, so if they think
> we're doing a bad job I'm sure they'll deal with that.

Is Danese alive? I haven't seen her on a public mailing list, IRC channel,
or wiki since she was hired. At all.

> Everybody is also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority
> project.

"High-profile, high-priority"? This has been in development for years and
years and still isn't finished. What on Earth happens to the low priorities?

MZMcBride
z [at] mzmcbride



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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 9:05 PM

Post #12 of 55 (2920 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

Hi, Alex. Good questions.

On 02/28/2010 08:10 PM, Alex wrote:
>> > When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
>> > is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
>> > running the project?
>> >
>>
> I second this. Are William and Howie just under contract indefinitely
> until FlaggedRevs is finally "ready"? Who are they responsible to, and
> why is that person apparently not giving them any sort of priorities
> (like, creating a plan or a deadline)?
>

As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming
Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and
which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in
the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary
deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a
date. If you have further questions on this, let me know.

Regarding incentives, I believe that this project borrowed Howie part
time from the Usability Team, who will welcome having him back when
we're done. For my part, I certainly have an reason to get this done
soon. Like everybody, I thought this would go quicker, and I gave WMF a
70% discount from my normal rate, because heck, I love Wikipedia. But
each week this goes on means a slightly larger hole in my 2010 revenue
picture. A worthwhile one, to be sure, but I'd still like to keep it as
small as possible.

> Why is there such little transparency in this whole process? Rather than
> use the normal bug tracker that all other MediaWiki developers use and
> that the community is used to, they're using some entirely separate one,
> hosted on a 3rd party website.

See my explanation elsewhere in the thread, but basically, I'm not
tracking bugs, and Bugzilla is a poor fit for the approach I thought
best. I used the fastest-to-use tool that suits that approach, so as to
maximize the time spent on actual work. Nobody has mentioned an issue
with it until now. If people would rather I also tracked a bunch of
tickets in Bugzilla we can talk about that, and I'm eager to hear other
suggestions for ways to increase transparency.

> As far as I can tell, there's only been
> one unprompted communication with the community regarding this - the
> techblog post in January that had little new information.
>

I've reported when I thought I had something to report, and I've
certainly answered direct questions from people. I'm definitely planning
to announce boldly when we actually have something to show, and I'll do
that far and wide.

Although I considered it, it didn't seem useful to send out a "hey,
still working" update in the meantime. Partly because there's not a
great venue for it, and partly because the subsequent roiling of the
waters takes up time and energy I'd rather see productively used. But
mainly because it's hard to do that without throwing under the bus
whatever person or group is currently the bottleneck. And not only is
that unfair, but it's terrible for both morale and productivity, so it
seemed like waiting for a labs update was the best option.

I'm open to suggestions, though, so definitely drop me a line (perhaps
off list?) if you want to discuss something.

William

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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 9:10 PM

Post #13 of 55 (2924 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 08:43 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> On 28 February 2010 20:24, William Pietri<william [at] scissor> wrote:
>
>> Menacing people like that with "consequences" mainly serves to destroy
>> motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this
>> done, I ask you not to do that again.
>>
> Nobody has done any menacing. He asked what the consequences would be,
> he didn't threaten consequences. (That there will be consequences if
> you don't do your job should go without saying. Those consequences
> will come from your boss, not the community, though.)
>

Well, in my experience, when somebody starts out with "what the fuck"
and ends up talking about consequences, it is rarely a purely academic
inquiry into organizational practices. But if I read it wrong, I'd be
glad to apologize.

I think the people working on this (Aaron and Howie in particular) are
both talented and hardworking, so I feel protective of them. I'd like
them to spend a long time working for the Wikimedia Foundation, and
anything that might push against that is going to rile me up some.

William


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thomas.dalton at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 9:27 PM

Post #14 of 55 (2924 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 28 February 2010 21:05, William Pietri <william [at] scissor> wrote:
> As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming
> Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and
> which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in
> the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary
> deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a
> date. If you have further questions on this, let me know.

You've been working on it for months. Surely you and your team have
produced something in that time. Look at how much it is, compare it to
how much you think needs to be done (working out what needed to be
done was the first thing you did, yes?), do a bit of multiplication,
and give us your projected finish date. You shouldn't be "trying to
measure productivity", you should just be measuring it.

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 9:36 PM

Post #15 of 55 (2920 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
> I've reported when I thought I had something to report

I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
accomplishments because there haven't been any.

Perhaps you're actually saying that the work done so far is great and
wonderful and massive in quantity, but isn't the sort of thing people
care to hear about? If that's the case, I think this thread clearly
cries out for people to hear what you've been doing.

- -Mike
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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 10:03 PM

Post #16 of 55 (2923 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
> I finally figured out that the "view history" button in Pivotal Tracker is
> where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at,
> Aaron appears to have completed them "2 months ago." But they're not marked
> as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up
> exactly?
>

Sorry, I thought I explained this earlier: deploying to somewhere that
people can see is the current holdup. I believe that something isn't
actually done until it's has been tested in an environment sufficiently
like production that you have reasonable confidence that it will work.



>> My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My
>> long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress.
>> You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is
>> why I mentioned it.
>>
> Are you a programmer? The programmers seem to be the ones who have done
> their jobs here. This isn't a development issue by the looks of it, it's a
> management issue. And I'm "swearing" at the management (see e-mail subject
> line).
>

I have not noticed that swearing at other people noticeably improves
their performance either, but I am specifically concerned that the team
members will be affected by your tone, whether or not you mean it for
any specific individual.

If you'd like to swear at me specifically, fine, whatever, but please do
it off list. In public, and specifically when people who are working
hard might take it amiss, I ask you to speak politely and
professionally. Team morale is important to team productivity.



> I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs
> site<http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org> and I've been the one doing the
> admin promotions on there since September 2009.
>
> Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about?
>

Off the top of my head, direct email, plus these pages:

http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Bug_reports_and_enhancement_requests
http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page

Plus various direct communication from Erik when I joined the project
about the current state of things. And whatever else Howie dug up as he
looked into improving the interfaces.


>> The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what
>> motivated this latest round of changes.
>>
> Where are the comments from the Usability team?
>

We get together and talk. In the WMF office, mainly. It's faster.

> Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing?
> I'm curious.
>

Howie, Aaron, and Parul all worked on that. The visual design is done
and, I believe, implemented. There are some language changes going on now.

> And shouldn't I be able to see all of this Usability work at your Pivotal
> Tracker? I don't.
>


No. The only thing we care about in the end is delivered software, so
that's all Pivotal Tracker tracks. Upstream artifacts are tracked via
email and verbally.

>> As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I
>> ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity.
>>
> You "ardently hope"? Aren't you the person in charge of this project?
>

Sort of. Project manager means I'm responsible for pushing it through,
not that I'm particularly in charge of it. In my view, the community's
ultimately in charge.

I expected things to be released before this point, and indeed I
previously expected to be able to release on the current Labs site
without issue. Having been surprised before, I hope but do not yet plan
that I won't be surprised again. I could make up dates, or I could press
other people to make up dates and give them to you, but I believe that
to be the sort of BS project management that gets a lot of perfectly
fine projects into needles hot water.

When I have enough data to give everybody a date I have some confidence
in, I'll do it. But given that speed is the primary driver here, I'm not
going to increase the workload of already busy people, thereby delaying
the project, just to create dates whose value is questionable.

> Unlike the impediments you've been throwing up in this thread and that
> others have been throwing up over the past months and years? Originally it
> was getting the software mostly finished. That happened, and Erik announced
> that any project could request FlaggedRevisions. Then it became an issue of
> user interface (and oh-my-god usability). Then a hardware issue (though that
> turned out to be mostly, if not completely, bunk). I wonder what the next
> boogeyman will be. Perhaps http://bit.ly/djkLDa ?
>


I don't appreciate the implication that I'm somehow trying to block this
project, or that there's some grand conspiracy to block it. I want to
get it done. Everybody involved wants to get it done. None of us
benefits by not getting it done.


>> If, as seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be
>> able to estimate development time and project dates.
>>
> You've said in this very thread that "there is no specific deadline." Now
> you're saying the opposite? Estimating "development time and project dates"
> sounds like a deadline to me. Why can't we have one of those? Why can't
> there be a specific date by which FlaggedRevisions will be enabled on the
> English Wikipedia. That's what I'm after.
>

I understand that's what you want. If it were in my power to give you a
correct and accurate date, I would do that. It would be a glorious
relief to me, and it would make a lot of people happy.

However, what would not make anybody happy in the long run is for me to
give a date that I don't have confidence in. The only real way to get
confidence in dates is to make measurable, incremental progress and then
project dates from that. That is what I am trying to do.

>> Everybody is also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority
>> project.
>>
> "High-profile, high-priority"? This has been in development for years and
> years and still isn't finished. What on Earth happens to the low priorities?
>

As a relative outsider, my impression is that all of the WMF people are
working hard to run a foundation and keep the lights on for one of the
world's most popular and important web sites. Most of my work is with
commercial operations, and I can promise you that relative to any
comparable site, they operate on a shoestring. Why? Because they love it.

Compare it with Twitter, for example. They have taken $160m in funding
and just added their 140th employee. But Twitter serves circa a third
the number of web users, and it's mainly a small box where you can type
in a message for your friends. While the WMF serves how many different
projects and languages?

So before you do too much of that, it's worth thinking about all the
other things they are currently accomplishing. And what effect a lot of
external snark has on that feeling of love that is their primary
motivator for working there.


William

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wikimail at inbox

Feb 28, 2010, 10:10 PM

Post #17 of 55 (2916 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:59 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:

> "High-profile, high-priority"? This has been in development for years and
> years and still isn't finished. What on Earth happens to the low
> priorities?
>

They get done before anyone comes up with a reason to delay them :).
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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 10:16 PM

Post #18 of 55 (2919 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 09:27 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> On 28 February 2010 21:05, William Pietri<william [at] scissor> wrote:
>
>> As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming
>> Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and
>> which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in
>> the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary
>> deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a
>> date. If you have further questions on this, let me know.
>>
> You've been working on it for months. Surely you and your team have
> produced something in that time. Look at how much it is, compare it to
> how much you think needs to be done (working out what needed to be
> done was the first thing you did, yes?), do a bit of multiplication,
> and give us your projected finish date. You shouldn't be "trying to
> measure productivity", you should just be measuring it.
>

That's an entirely reasonable approach, but there are two wrinkles.

One, I underestimated the difficulty of releasing to a production-like
environment. And until we have done that, we can't tell the difference
between the things we hope are done and the things that are actually
done. I intend to only measure the latter; measuring the former as if
they were done is chancy. I am pressing vigorously for us to be able to
do that soon, but there's only so much pressing you can do without
long-term harm.

Two, most software projects are inevitably exploratory. The difference
between what we think we need and what we actually ended up needing is
often large. So I could project dates based on all of the needs that we
have discovered, and then somebody in the community will look at the
software and say, "Hey, what about X?" And X will be some entirely
reasonable thing that it is now obvious that we need. So I think it's
better to release early and often and be open about the fact that it
won't be really done until everybody (or, y'know, enough of everybody)
agrees that we're now really done, or at least feel comfortable
projecting that we're done.

But if you'd like to make your own projections, all the data for the
development work is exportable from Pivotal Tracker. If I thought I
could take that data, or any other data, and give people a real date,
one that they could have confidence in, I would be ecstatic to do so.
But I can't, and I won't just give a BS date to get everybody off my back.

William

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Brian.Mingus at Colorado

Feb 28, 2010, 10:17 PM

Post #19 of 55 (2920 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:03 PM, William Pietri <william [at] scissor>wrote:

> On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
> > I finally figured out that the "view history" button in Pivotal Tracker
> is
> > where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at,
> > Aaron appears to have completed them "2 months ago." But they're not
> marked
> > as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up
> > exactly?
> >
>
> Sorry, I thought I explained this earlier: deploying to somewhere that
> people can see is the current holdup. I believe that something isn't
> actually done until it's has been tested in an environment sufficiently
> like production that you have reasonable confidence that it will work.


I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process
of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a "high priority"
project. My 2 cents.
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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 10:23 PM

Post #20 of 55 (2922 views)
Permalink
Re: William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
> On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
>
>> I've reported when I thought I had something to report
>>
> I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
> accomplishments because there haven't been any.
>

We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show
it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress
report saying "things are probably better now but you can't see" didn't
seem so helpful.

When I put up the last blog post, we did have something accomplished: a
clear list of all the things we knew were necessary to release, with
relative estimates, and posted in a public place so others could keep
track of the status and let us know if they thought we missed anything.
We've since worked on them, and I promise that as soon as we have
something to show, which I would very much like to be soon, I'll let
everybody know.

William


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thomas.dalton at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 10:24 PM

Post #21 of 55 (2925 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
> I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process
> of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
> just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
> problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
> problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a "high priority"
> project. My 2 cents.

The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
long, though...

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z at mzmcbride

Feb 28, 2010, 10:36 PM

Post #22 of 55 (2917 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

William Pietri wrote:
> On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
>> I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs
>> site <http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org> and I've been the one doing the
>> admin promotions on there since September 2009.
>>
>> Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about?
>
> Off the top of my head, direct email, plus these pages:
>
> http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Bug_reports_and_enhanceme
> nt_requests
> http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page

Did you, uh, happen to click those links? In the first link, the page hasn't
been edited since December 2009. The second link is almost exclusively
various users asking for adminship and me responding to them. When you said
"the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least judging
by the last round of feedback on the labs site," I figured there might have
been something substantive (and recent) you were basing these comments on.
Silly me.

> We get together and talk. In the WMF office, mainly. It's faster.

And it obliterates any possibility for a paper trail or accountability when
deadlines are missed. Though in a George W. Bush-esque style, apparently no
deadlines are being set. It's an interesting thought experiment if you
extend this "don't set a deadline for projects" model: that multi-million
dollar blockbuster? Due in theaters sometime, maybe.

>> Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing?
>> I'm curious.
>
> Howie, Aaron, and Parul all worked on that. The visual design is done
> and, I believe, implemented. There are some language changes going on now.

Got links? Nearly all Wikimedia-related software development has been
publicly visible since the beginning. If there's software, language, or
usability work being done, where are the links?

>> You "ardently hope"? Aren't you the person in charge of this project?
>>
> Sort of. Project manager means I'm responsible for pushing it through,
> not that I'm particularly in charge of it. In my view, the community's
> ultimately in charge.

This is a joke, right? This is subtle humor?

> When I have enough data to give everybody a date I have some confidence
> in, I'll do it. But given that speed is the primary driver here, I'm not
> going to increase the workload of already busy people, thereby delaying
> the project, just to create dates whose value is questionable.

"Speed is the primary driver here"? I think you're just trolling now.

> I don't appreciate the implication that I'm somehow trying to block this
> project, or that there's some grand conspiracy to block it. I want to
> get it done. Everybody involved wants to get it done. None of us
> benefits by not getting it done.

Honest-to-God, nobody is asking that you put a man on the moon. It's some
PHP that's conveniently already been written. Enable the damn extension,
already.

[.I've omitted the pseudo-Kumbaya, we don't have any money or resources, look
at Twitter! bullshit. It's not worth a proper reply.]

MZMcBride
z [at] mzmcbride



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stephen.bain at gmail

Feb 28, 2010, 10:41 PM

Post #23 of 55 (2918 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:16 PM, William Pietri <william [at] scissor> wrote:
>
> Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working
> to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production
> environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test
> there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia.
> Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a
> lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while.

So to clarify, what is currently holding the project up is this old
server (presumably recycled from production usage), that is sitting
around waiting to be configured like a production server for testing?

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain [at] gmail

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z at mzmcbride

Feb 28, 2010, 10:44 PM

Post #24 of 55 (2926 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

William Pietri wrote:
> But I can't, and I won't just give a BS date to get everybody off my back.

Here's my idea (radical as it may seem): set a deadline, and then, come Hell
or high water, meet it.

That's what nearly every person in academia, journalism, business, the
non-profit sector, or anywhere else is _forced_ to do.

Stop making excuses, set a target date for completion, and get
FlaggedRevisions deployed on the English Wikipedia. Period.

MZMcBride
z [at] mzmcbride



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william at scissor

Feb 28, 2010, 10:51 PM

Post #25 of 55 (2917 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 02/28/2010 10:24 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus<Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:
>
>> I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process
>> of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
>> just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
>> problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
>> problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a "high priority"
>> project. My 2 cents.
>>
> The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
> in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
> Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
> the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
> long, though...
>

Yes. I was also expecting it to be easy. Heck, we had flaggedrevs.labs
up already, so how hard could an update be? Which is why in the blog
post I was sunny about having something visible soon.

But for abstruse reasons, not all of which I understand personally, it
turned out that it was not easy. It sounds like the reasons are mainly
historical, though. Regardless, I have full faith that the people
keeping the servers running are prioritizing this work highly, although
-- correctly -- not as highly as keeping the existing stuff from blowing
up. I really want FlaggedRevs deployed on enwiki, but I also want there
to be an enwiki to deploy to.


Sleep beckons, so I'm going to give up on this thread for the night, and
the next couple of days are heavily booked. But if people have more
questions, please do post them; if nobody else gets to them first, I will.

And in the future people want to know about something, just drop me a
note off list and say, "Hey, William! I was wondering about X, and I'd
bet other people are too." I'm entirely happy to keep people apprised on
pretty much anything, but I don't want to gratuitously spam the inboxes
of the eight zillion busy people on these lists until I have something
useful to announce.

William


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Brian.Mingus at Colorado

Feb 28, 2010, 10:57 PM

Post #26 of 55 (2120 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:

> On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado>
> wrote:
> > I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the
> process
> > of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
> > just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
> > problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
> > problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a "high priority"
> > project. My 2 cents.
>
> The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
> in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
> Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
> the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
> long, though...
>
>
Setting up cur en has been surprisingly easy in the past, particularly with
the advent of that fast C->mysql dump importer. And many people can afford
those cheap dell quad core nehalem i7 cpus "desktops".

But honestly I don't see why it can't just be thrown up on any old apache by
an experienced wmf admin in a matter of minutes, using the live data but not
attached to squid, memcached etc.. Honestly, how much load are we going to
subject this thing to right away?
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Brian.Mingus at Colorado

Feb 28, 2010, 11:00 PM

Post #27 of 55 (2115 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>wrote:
>
>> On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus <Brian.Mingus [at] colorado>
>> wrote:
>> > I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the
>> process
>> > of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If
>> you
>> > just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
>> > problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
>> > problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a "high priority"
>> > project. My 2 cents.
>>
>> The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
>> in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
>> Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
>> the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
>> long, though...
>>
>>
> Setting up cur en has been surprisingly easy in the past, particularly with
> the advent of that fast C->mysql dump importer. And many people can afford
> those cheap dell quad core nehalem i7 cpus "desktops".
>
> But honestly I don't see why it can't just be thrown up on any old apache
> by an experienced wmf admin in a matter of minutes, using the live data but
> not attached to squid, memcached etc.. Honestly, how much load are we going
> to subject this thing to right away?
>
>
I should add - if the Toolserver is still replicating mysql that would be
the perfect place for this.
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wikimail at inbox

Feb 28, 2010, 11:22 PM

Post #28 of 55 (2116 views)
Permalink
Re: William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri <william [at] scissor> wrote:

> On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
> > On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
> >
> >> I've reported when I thought I had something to report
> >>
> > I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
> > accomplishments because there haven't been any.
> >
>
> We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show
> it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress
> report saying "things are probably better now but you can't see" didn't
> seem so helpful.
>

"Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery. Twenty
years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful
software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule
many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a new
version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle, you
have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This lets
you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure that
your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left
wondering, "What are those guys doing?" When you see concrete results on a
regular basis, there’s no mystery."

http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy
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wikimail at inbox

Feb 28, 2010, 11:42 PM

Post #29 of 55 (2118 views)
Permalink
Re: William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri <william [at] scissor>wrote:
>
>> On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
>> > On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've reported when I thought I had something to report
>> >>
>> > I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
>> > accomplishments because there haven't been any.
>> >
>>
>> We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show
>> it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress
>> report saying "things are probably better now but you can't see" didn't
>> seem so helpful.
>>
>
> "Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery. Twenty
> years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful
> software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule
> many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a new
> version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle, you
> have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This lets
> you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure that
> your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left
> wondering, "What are those guys doing?" When you see concrete results on a
> regular basis, there’s no mystery."
>
> http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy
>

I should clarify that that quote just happened to catch my eye, and that
it's totally off-topic and unrelated to anything of importance.

Actually, in hindsight, I shouldn't be posting when I'm in my current
under-rested state.
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Brian.Mingus at Colorado

Mar 1, 2010, 12:02 AM

Post #30 of 55 (2121 views)
Permalink
Re: William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri <william [at] scissor
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
> >> > On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I've reported when I thought I had something to report
> >> >>
> >> > I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
> >> > accomplishments because there haven't been any.
> >> >
> >>
> >> We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show
> >> it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress
> >> report saying "things are probably better now but you can't see" didn't
> >> seem so helpful.
> >>
> >
> > "Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery.
> Twenty
> > years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful
> > software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule
> > many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a
> new
> > version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle,
> you
> > have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This
> lets
> > you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure
> that
> > your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left
> > wondering, "What are those guys doing?" When you see concrete results on
> a
> > regular basis, there’s no mystery."
> >
> > http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy
> >
>
> I should clarify that that quote just happened to catch my eye, and that
> it's totally off-topic and unrelated to anything of importance.
>
> Actually, in hindsight, I shouldn't be posting when I'm in my current
> under-rested state.
>
>
Are you kidding? That quote is spot on.
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dgerard at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 12:32 AM

Post #31 of 55 (2123 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 1 March 2010 06:51, William Pietri <william [at] scissor> wrote:

> And in the future people want to know about something, just drop me a
> note off list and say, "Hey, William! I was wondering about X, and I'd
> bet other people are too." I'm entirely happy to keep people apprised on
> pretty much anything, but I don't want to gratuitously spam the inboxes
> of the eight zillion busy people on these lists until I have something
> useful to announce.


Thanks for your work on this. "Project manager" may be defined as "all
the responsibility and none of the actual power," so good luck with it
too ;-)

Suggestion: weekly updates (to en:wp Village Pump and wikien-l,
perhaps), with whatever there is to report, including nothing. People
hear nothing and worry and get upset - you can see the frantic
activity below the surface, everyone else just sees a duck sitting on
a pond.


- d.

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steven.walling at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 12:52 AM

Post #32 of 55 (2122 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

I'm not really interested in debating about how well the implementation of
Flagged Revisions has gone/is going. But I would like to say that I was
pleasantly surprised to see the project using PivotalTracker. It's been easy
for me to keep updated on the work being done since I started checking on
it.

Thanks to whomever set that up, and thanks to everyone at the Foundation
level involved with FlaggedRevs for taking the time to make sure it's
implemented well.

Steven Walling

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:32 AM, David Gerard <dgerard [at] gmail> wrote:

> On 1 March 2010 06:51, William Pietri <william [at] scissor> wrote:
>
> > And in the future people want to know about something, just drop me a
> > note off list and say, "Hey, William! I was wondering about X, and I'd
> > bet other people are too." I'm entirely happy to keep people apprised on
> > pretty much anything, but I don't want to gratuitously spam the inboxes
> > of the eight zillion busy people on these lists until I have something
> > useful to announce.
>
>
> Thanks for your work on this. "Project manager" may be defined as "all
> the responsibility and none of the actual power," so good luck with it
> too ;-)
>
> Suggestion: weekly updates (to en:wp Village Pump and wikien-l,
> perhaps), with whatever there is to report, including nothing. People
> hear nothing and worry and get upset - you can see the frantic
> activity below the surface, everyone else just sees a duck sitting on
> a pond.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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lists at caseybrown

Mar 1, 2010, 4:18 AM

Post #33 of 55 (2117 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Aphaia <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
> Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login
> took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once
> it "Godot". FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to
> realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait
> for in a less pain.
>

Yes, but no one was contracted for work on SUL. People are being paid
to work on *just* FlaggedRevs, it's not something that the tech team
has to fit into their time to develop.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 4:58 AM

Post #34 of 55 (2109 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

Hoi,
One of the things developers are not necessarily good at is communication as
in keeping everyone up to date. With the many channels secret and not so
secret. With the ferocity that many say typify the mailing lists, it is no
wonder that we hear few if any updates.

In my opinion the reason why the English language Wikipedia does not have
Flagged Revisions already is because they did not want the fully functional
Flagged Revisions that is used for some years now on the German language
Wikipedia. Wanting something different is its prerogative but it does not
follow that it is easy or quick. Remember the 80/20 rule and remember that
the special wishes makes the software more complicated.

The English language Wikipedia is also spoiled because it gets the things
programmed. When you consider that many of the issues with RTL languages and
font issues like with the Malayalam language get hardly the attention they
require, it is rather obvious that tantrums prevent information becoming
available on the public mailinglists.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 1 March 2010 13:18, Casey Brown <lists [at] caseybrown> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Aphaia <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login
> > took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once
> > it "Godot". FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to
> > realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait
> > for in a less pain.
> >
>
> Yes, but no one was contracted for work on SUL. People are being paid
> to work on *just* FlaggedRevs, it's not something that the tech team
> has to fit into their time to develop.
>
> --
> Casey Brown
> Cbrown1023
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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adhair at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 8:19 AM

Post #35 of 55 (2106 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

MZMcBride,

You raise a legitimate point, and I don't mean to silence discussion
on the topic—I'm curious to know, myself—but please keep a civil
tongue. As we've seen from the various replies, your approach is
making for a hostile thread; this is not only unpleasant, but also
extremely unproductive.

Austin

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geniice at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 10:27 AM

Post #36 of 55 (2092 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 1 March 2010 04:18, Aphaia <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
> Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login
> took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once
> it "Godot". FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to
> realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait
> for in a less pain.


Rather more that months but that's beside the point. SUL was being
worked on by guys who we knew were doing other stuff and that other
stuff was stuff we could see. FlaggedRevs not so much.



--
geni

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mrzmanwiki at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 2:32 PM

Post #37 of 55 (2097 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

The English Wikipedia isn't asking for a total rewrite of the extension.
FlaggedRevs was always (at least since it was first deployed) highly
customizable. I believe the "Flagged Protection" feature was able to be
implemented, or very close to it, at the time the proposal was
finalized. Supposedly the changes being made now are mostly UI and
workflow changes to make it easier to use or something like that. (Why
this wasn't done before it was deployed on dewiki or anywhere else, I
don't know)

Its not like enwiki deciding to use FlaggedRevs was a total surprise.
Erik had always assumed that enwiki would get it eventually, why did the
foundation wait until 6 months /after/ enwiki requested it to hire
people to work on this?

--
Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

On 3/1/2010 7:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> One of the things developers are not necessarily good at is communication as
> in keeping everyone up to date. With the many channels secret and not so
> secret. With the ferocity that many say typify the mailing lists, it is no
> wonder that we hear few if any updates.
>
> In my opinion the reason why the English language Wikipedia does not have
> Flagged Revisions already is because they did not want the fully functional
> Flagged Revisions that is used for some years now on the German language
> Wikipedia. Wanting something different is its prerogative but it does not
> follow that it is easy or quick. Remember the 80/20 rule and remember that
> the special wishes makes the software more complicated.
>
> The English language Wikipedia is also spoiled because it gets the things
> programmed. When you consider that many of the issues with RTL languages and
> font issues like with the Malayalam language get hardly the attention they
> require, it is rather obvious that tantrums prevent information becoming
> available on the public mailinglists.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 1 March 2010 13:18, Casey Brown <lists [at] caseybrown> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Aphaia <aphaia [at] gmail> wrote:
>>> Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login
>>> took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once
>>> it "Godot". FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to
>>> realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait
>>> for in a less pain.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but no one was contracted for work on SUL. People are being paid
>> to work on *just* FlaggedRevs, it's not something that the tech team
>> has to fit into their time to develop.
>>
>> --
>> Casey Brown
>> Cbrown1023
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l [at] lists
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l [at] lists
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



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erik at wikimedia

Mar 1, 2010, 2:45 PM

Post #38 of 55 (2108 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

Hello all,

as a matter of principle, I'm not going to engage in this thread given
the toxic tone in which it was started and partially carried on, nor
do I expect any other WMF staff or contractors to do so. If there is
interest in a civil, reasonable discussion regarding this or any other
topic, please start a new thread, and we can have a conversation from
scratch, within the constraints of everyone's availability.

Thanks,
Erik
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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p858snake at yahoo

Mar 1, 2010, 3:19 PM

Post #39 of 55 (2106 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Alex <mrzmanwiki [at] gmail> wrote:
> The English Wikipedia isn't asking for a total rewrite of the extension.
> FlaggedRevs was always (at least since it was first deployed) highly
> customizable. I believe the "Flagged Protection" feature was able to be
> implemented, or very close to it..snip...
No, the en.wiki community decided/voted that it wanted the Flagged
Protection (selected articles) compared to Flagged Revisions (all
articles) for it's implementation and that wasn't available so it
got/is being worked on to allow that, although as you did state, i
believe they are onto the UI section now.

-Peachey

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z at mzmcbride

Mar 1, 2010, 5:18 PM

Post #40 of 55 (2092 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

Erik Moeller wrote:
> as a matter of principle, I'm not going to engage in this thread given
> the toxic tone in which it was started and partially carried on, nor
> do I expect any other WMF staff or contractors to do so. If there is
> interest in a civil, reasonable discussion regarding this or any other
> topic, please start a new thread, and we can have a conversation from
> scratch, within the constraints of everyone's availability.

Really? That's where your principles fall? You know what sounds toxic? The
claim that a man is "a new resident in the area and a known child molester."
That's been in one of our articles for months and months; the only provided
source is a dead link that's part of an advocacy site.

Don't worry about that, though. It's not your name being smeared in the name
of open and free content.

Here's the new thread, up to spec:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-March/057019.html

You're up.

MZMcBride



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adhair at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 5:37 PM

Post #41 of 55 (2092 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:18 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:
> You're up.

You're moderated.

I gave you fair warning; I even acknowledged that you had a valid
point to be made, if you just didn't act like a jerk about it. Even
your new thread is plainly hostile, for reasons I don't claim to
understand.

Once you can construct a civil post, I'll let your mail through to the list.

Austin

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Mar 1, 2010, 5:53 PM

Post #42 of 55 (2089 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, Alex wrote:
> Why
> this wasn't done before it was deployed on dewiki or anywhere else, I
> don't know

Because only enwiki matters?

- -Mike
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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IekAniABDktu11GXkktAfxv1dhqGN6ss
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email at mikepeel

Mar 2, 2010, 12:34 AM

Post #43 of 55 (2056 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 2 Mar 2010, at 01:18, MZMcBride wrote:

> You know what sounds toxic? The
> claim that a man is "a new resident in the area and a known child
> molester."
> That's been in one of our articles for months and months; the only
> provided
> source is a dead link that's part of an advocacy site.


Reverted last night by Wjhonson, for anyone wondering:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
title=West_Memphis_3&action=historysubmit&diff=347211677&oldid=346894057

Mike


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wikimail at inbox

Mar 2, 2010, 8:20 AM

Post #44 of 55 (1981 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:18 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:

> You know what sounds toxic? The
> claim that a man is "a new resident in the area and a known child
> molester."
> That's been in one of our articles for months and months; the only provided
> source is a dead link that's part of an advocacy site.
>

You think people are going to actually fact check links before flagging an
edit. Ha!
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gerard.meijssen at gmail

Mar 2, 2010, 9:16 AM

Post #45 of 55 (1982 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

Hoi,
Some will, the ones that don't do a reasonable job may lose their flagging
capability or get flagged as an appreciation for the quality of their work.
Thanks,
GerardM

PS Please be a bit more considerate, a bit more positive ...

On 2 March 2010 17:20, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:18 PM, MZMcBride <z [at] mzmcbride> wrote:
>
> > You know what sounds toxic? The
> > claim that a man is "a new resident in the area and a known child
> > molester."
> > That's been in one of our articles for months and months; the only
> provided
> > source is a dead link that's part of an advocacy site.
> >
>
> You think people are going to actually fact check links before flagging an
> edit. Ha!
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wikimail at inbox

Mar 2, 2010, 9:37 AM

Post #46 of 55 (1999 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen [at] gmail>wrote:

> Hoi,
> Some will, the ones that don't do a reasonable job may lose their flagging
> capability or get flagged as an appreciation for the quality of their work.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> PS Please be a bit more considerate, a bit more positive ...
>

C'mon Gerard, I'm not going to pretend that "flagged revisions", as
currently proposed to be implemented, is going to be a magical silver
bullet, just so I can be positive and upbeat (and considerate???). The fact
of the matter is that I am quite convinced that the current proposed
implementation of "flagged revisions" is going to help very little, and in
some instances may actually make things worse.

Yes, I realize the decision has already been made to go ahead and implement
this "feature". And I'm hoping along with the rest of you that it gets
implemented as soon as possible. But I'm not going to pretend it's a
particularly good idea. I hope it gets implemented as soon as possible
because once it does maybe people can see its failure and start thinking
about some real solutions.

The ones that don't do a reasonable job may lose their flagging capability?
What's a reasonable job? Are people *supposed* to fact-check everything
before they flag an edit? Are they *supposed* to verify all references?
What if those references aren't available online? Would the person who
flagged the edit about

What are we currently doing when people edit about JM Sr. lose her flagging
capability? Would she even be admonished? The source most likely was not
broken at the time it was added. It wasn't a particularly good source, but
can you imagine the Wikipedia community taking away flagging privileges over
a dispute over the reliability of a source?

Is [[User:W guice]] going to be admonished for this edit (
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=West_Memphis_3&diff=336279698&oldid=334567668).
S/he made a typographical fix to the paragraph in question. Has anyone even
found the person who added the paragraph in the first place? Is that person
going to "lose their editing capability" for not "doing a reasonable job"?
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grinapo at gmail

Mar 2, 2010, 12:28 PM

Post #47 of 55 (1951 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 18:37, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:

>  I hope it gets implemented as soon as possible
> because once it does maybe people can see its failure and start thinking
> about some real solutions.

Are you aware of the fact that it's been used in non-English
wikipedias for years? And it's been quite a successful feature.

YMMV.
grin

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Mar 2, 2010, 12:36 PM

Post #48 of 55 (1940 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 2 March 2010 12:28, Peter Gervai <grinapo [at] gmail> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 18:37, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
>
>>  I hope it gets implemented as soon as possible
>> because once it does maybe people can see its failure and start thinking
>> about some real solutions.
>
> Are you aware of the fact that it's been used in non-English
> wikipedias for years? And it's been quite a successful feature.

"Years" is a bit of an exaggeration. German Wikipedia was first and
that was May 6, 2008. That's a little under 2 years. I don't think
anyone has actually done any objective review of its success.

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grinapo at gmail

Mar 2, 2010, 1:04 PM

Post #49 of 55 (1946 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 21:36, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail> wrote:

>> Are you aware of the fact that it's been used in non-English
>> wikipedias for years? And it's been quite a successful feature.
>
> "Years" is a bit of an exaggeration. German Wikipedia was first and
> that was May 6, 2008. That's a little under 2 years.

I stand corrected. "It's been used for more than a year now, ..."

Much better, you're right. ;-)

> I don't think anyone has actually done any objective review of its success.

Which does not imply it's been a failure. But generally my measure would be
a) bad mood/stress level of the editors doing patrolling (which by my
educated guess went down), and
b) the incidents of indecent/unwanted content appearing for the wide
public (which by my observation definitely went down, my guess is
close to zero).

There are people who thought it's a miracle and now disappointed that
it wasn't. It doesn't solve world peace, hunger, and article quality
problems, among other things. But what it does is basically make usual
vandalism pointless.

At least on my home wiki, huwp.

Still it's okay for me "to have it implemented and let people to see
_whether_ it's a failure".
--
byte-byte,
grin

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thomas.dalton at gmail

Mar 2, 2010, 2:05 PM

Post #50 of 55 (1948 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On 2 March 2010 13:04, Peter Gervai <grinapo [at] gmail> wrote:
> Which does not imply it's been a failure. But generally my measure would be
> a) bad mood/stress level of the editors doing patrolling (which by my
> educated guess went down), and
> b) the incidents of indecent/unwanted content appearing for the wide
> public (which by my observation definitely went down, my guess is
> close to zero).

What about c) people not editing (or not continuing to edit) because
they don't like their edits not going live immediately? Any data on
that?

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mike.lifeguard at gmail

Mar 2, 2010, 3:17 PM

Post #51 of 55 (2016 views)
Permalink
Re: �lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, Peter Gervai wrote:
> Are you aware of the fact that it's been used in non-English
> wikipedias for years? And it's been quite a successful feature.
>
> YMMV.
> grin
>
>

Are you aware it's been used on enwikibooks too? And has been quite a
failure there?

YMMV.
- -Mike
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Mar 2, 2010, 4:58 PM

Post #52 of 55 (1994 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Peter Gervai <grinapo [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 18:37, Anthony <wikimail [at] inbox> wrote:
>
> > I hope it gets implemented as soon as possible
> > because once it does maybe people can see its failure and start thinking
> > about some real solutions.
>
> Are you aware of the fact that it's been used in non-English
> wikipedias for years? And it's been quite a successful feature.
>

I'm aware of the fact that a different form of it than the one proposed for
the English Wikipedia, has been used for quite a while on the German
Wikipedia (apparently May 6, 2008). I assume other language Wikipedias have
followed suit.

I'm not aware of how successful it was on the German Wikipedia, and I'm also
not aware of how closely the problems and cultures of the German Wikipedia
are to the English Wikipedia. I'd love to hear any insights you have on
this.
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Mar 2, 2010, 5:19 PM

Post #53 of 55 (1996 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Peter Gervai <grinapo [at] gmail> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 21:36, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton [at] gmail>
> wrote:
> > I don't think anyone has actually done any objective review of its
> success.
>
> Which does not imply it's been a failure.


No, of course not. What it implies is that a claim that "it's been quite a
successful feature" should be disregarded unless and until some actually
objective review is presented.

But generally my measure would be
> a) bad mood/stress level of the editors doing patrolling (which by my
> educated guess went down), and
>
b) the incidents of indecent/unwanted content appearing for the wide
> public (which by my observation definitely went down, my guess is
> close to zero).
>
> There are people who thought it's a miracle and now disappointed that
> it wasn't. It doesn't solve world peace, hunger, and article quality
> problems, among other things. But what it does is basically make usual
> vandalism pointless.
>
> At least on my home wiki, huwp.
>
> Still it's okay for me "to have it implemented and let people to see
> _whether_ it's a failure".
>

Okay, good point, you're right. I've been known to be wrong from time to
time, so I should leave room for the possibility that this is one of those
times. Maybe it will be a success. Maybe it'll cut down drastically on the
stupid obvious vandalism, thereby freeing people up to concentrate on the
tricky subtle vandalism. Or maybe the culture of the English Wikipedia is
just drastically different from the Hungarian Wikipedia, and the total
amount of vandalism won't go down much at all - it'll just get trickier and
more subtle, and the vandal-fighters will wind up spending more time and not
less. Unfortunately, if I had to bet, I'd bet on the latter.

In any case, the kind of problem which Mr. McBride (?) was complaining about
doesn't fall under "usual vandalism" anyway.

Anthony
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saintonge at telus

Mar 5, 2010, 4:23 PM

Post #54 of 55 (1524 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

David Gerard wrote:
> Suggestion: weekly updates (to en:wp Village Pump and wikien-l,
> perhaps), with whatever there is to report, including nothing. People
> hear nothing and worry and get upset - you can see the frantic
> activity below the surface, everyone else just sees a duck sitting on
> a pond.
>

Ducks sitting on a pond are just an invitation for the guy standing on
shore with a shotgun.

Ec

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Brian.Mingus at Colorado

Mar 5, 2010, 6:14 PM

Post #55 of 55 (1524 views)
Permalink
Re: Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions? [In reply to]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Ray Saintonge <saintonge [at] telus> wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
> > Suggestion: weekly updates (to en:wp Village Pump and wikien-l,
> > perhaps), with whatever there is to report, including nothing. People
> > hear nothing and worry and get upset - you can see the frantic
> > activity below the surface, everyone else just sees a duck sitting on
> > a pond.
> >
>
> Ducks sitting on a pond are just an invitation for the guy standing on
> shore with a shotgun.
>
> Ec


In my scientific work I find it highly beneficial to send early versions of
my analyses out to the other team members. I generally post them on our
internal wiki. This allows us to refine our ideas, to find bugs early, and
to suggest changes and new features. The best time to fix bugs and add new
features related to what you have already done is while or just after you
have finished writing that very code. If you push on with the analysis for
weeks or months without any external feedback you are ignoring many
opportunities for improvement. Trying to come back in the future and make
changes is tough - you have to refresh those ideas in your mind and relearn
your code. I think David's suggestion is a good one for more practical
reasons than he listed. Certainly I disagree with your conclusion that this
person is just going to get peppered with criticism. The exact opposite is
true - you will receive just criticism if you lock yourself up with an
important result for months on end.
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