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jimlinux at commspeed

Apr 21, 2010, 4:43 PM


Views: 3948
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Re: (no subject) [In reply to]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:19 PM, Steve Wray wrote:

> Spiro Harvey wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:36:17 +1200
>> Steve Wray <steve.wray [at] cwa> wrote:
>>> I know that in certain jurisdictions, reaching out to someone
>>> elses computer (ie not your property) and disabling functionality
>>> on it
>>> could constitute a criminal act.
>>> I sincerely hope that someone somewhere under such a jurisdiction
>>> goes to the police and reports the Clamav developers for such an
>>> offense.
>> Points to consider:
>> 4. What did you pay for the software?
>> 5. Where's your contract with them?
>
> This is part of the attitude problem from many open source projects.
>
> They are (too often) run by technicians and programmers with no
> input from the business side.
>
> What the Clamav team did, I can't believe it would have made it
> through a business analyst and I can't believe that any executive
> would have signed off on something like that after considering the
> potential impact it could have on their clients.

Possibly true for a commercial company, but that would have been to
protect their revenue stream. In this case, ClamAV's revenue stream
was not affected so, needlessly spend money on alternate methods would
most likely have been prohibited by the same business analyst.
>
> For the last 4 years or so I have had to shift my mindset from that
> of pure sysadmin to taking business considerations into account; its
> very easy for someone who is absorbed with programming and
> engineering to forget that IT is there to support business and that
> business is not there to support IT.
>
> This is something that I personally have struggled hard with, it can
> be difficult for a 'geek' to move in that direction. But its very
> very important if OSS is to be taken seriously in the enterprise.
>
> So many OSS projects do not view their users as clients or
> customers; they view them either as experimental subjects or as
> fellow experimenters. They only take the technical considerations
> into account and largely ignore potential impact on business.
>
> This is true both of the Clamav developers and of those people who
> didn't take precautions against potential problems such as the
> Clamav developers introduced. (And make no mistake; a problem was
> *created* by the Clamav team, a problem that did not exist prior to
> the changes they made).
>
> I have been using Linux since 1991 and I have seen a lot of positive
> change in that time. I have seen it go from crazy 'fringe' to being
> widely accepted in the enterprise. But shenanigans like this can
> risk all of that hard work.
>
> This is why I raised the legal and ethical issue; because that is
> what the business end should be considering and its what the
> technical end only rarely considers.
>
> I understand that Clamav is free as in 'beer' and that there is no
> legal contract with the Clamav team. However, Clamav has a parent
> company, Sourcefire, which is listed on Nasdaq and is a 'proper'
> corporation.

Yes, but still the same business analysts would not want to spend
money where it was not affecting a revenue stream.
>
> I have written to them to find out what they think of this, if
> anything at all...
>
> Sourcefire actually have executives and a general council and I am
> sure that they employ business analysts as well. I will be
> interested to see if what the Clamav team did is condoned by the
> parent company which clearly has some business acumen behind it.
>
>
> Don't get distracted by issues such as "Oh those bad silly sysadmins
> out there who messed up, its really *their* fault not the fault of
> the Clamav developers!" That is just *not* helpful. The damage is
> already done; damage to peoples systems and damage to the reputation
> not only of Clamav but of OSS in general.

Jim
_______________________________________________
Help us build a comprehensive ClamAV guide: visit http://wiki.clamav.net
http://www.clamav.net/support/ml

Subject User Time
(no subject) lobredor at telered Aug 1, 2003, 11:55 AM
    RE: (no subject) njh at bandsman Sep 23, 2003, 2:06 PM
        RE: (no subject) newsgroup at auratia Sep 24, 2003, 5:43 AM
    Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Sep 24, 2003, 8:42 AM
        Re: (no subject) newsgroup at auratia Sep 24, 2003, 11:30 AM
    Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Sep 24, 2003, 11:40 AM
        Re: (no subject) newsgroup at auratia Sep 24, 2003, 11:53 AM
    Re: (no subject) tk at lodz Feb 10, 2004, 5:08 AM
    RE: (no subject) njh at bandsman Feb 26, 2004, 3:44 PM
        RE: (no subject) scott.deacon at sympatico Feb 26, 2004, 7:28 PM
    Re: (no subject) Antony at Soft-Solutions Aug 12, 2004, 3:29 AM
        Re: Mail-ClamAV installed virus junkmail at phoenix-blaze Aug 12, 2004, 7:07 AM
            Re: Mail-ClamAV installed virus trog at uncon Aug 12, 2004, 7:18 AM
    Re: (no subject) niek at packetstorm Sep 7, 2004, 9:07 AM
        Re: (no subject) niek at packetstorm Sep 7, 2004, 10:09 AM
    RE: (no subject) sdimoff at usnetworksinc Oct 5, 2004, 6:17 AM
    Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Oct 5, 2004, 6:17 AM
    Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Oct 5, 2004, 6:22 AM
        Re: (no subject) sasab at pixteam Oct 5, 2004, 6:28 AM
        RE: (no subject) bclark at eccotours Oct 5, 2004, 6:33 AM
    Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Oct 5, 2004, 6:30 AM
    Re: (no subject) math at mlists Oct 5, 2004, 7:21 AM
        RE: (no subject) bclark at eccotours Oct 5, 2004, 7:43 AM
    Re: (no subject) Jose-Marcio.Martins at ensmp Oct 5, 2004, 7:41 AM
    Re: (no subject) shane.wise at nashvilleweather Oct 5, 2004, 7:52 AM
        Re: (no subject) math at mlists Oct 5, 2004, 8:07 AM
            Re: (no subject) shane.wise at nashvilleweather Oct 5, 2004, 8:27 AM
                Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Oct 5, 2004, 8:42 AM
                Re: (no subject) njh at bandsman Oct 5, 2004, 8:51 AM
    Re: (no subject) math at mlists Oct 5, 2004, 8:11 AM
    Re: (no subject) clamav-users at plumlee Feb 25, 2005, 7:24 AM
        Re: (no subject) tkojm at clamav Feb 25, 2005, 7:30 AM
            Re: (no subject) clamav-users at plumlee Feb 25, 2005, 9:16 AM
        Re: (no subject) bdm at fenrir Feb 25, 2005, 8:06 AM
            Re: (no subject) clamav-users at plumlee Feb 25, 2005, 9:47 AM
    RE: (no subject) daniel at goitrain Feb 25, 2005, 11:43 AM
    RE: (no subject) daniel at goitrain Feb 25, 2005, 6:48 PM
    RE: (no subject) dennispe at inetnw Feb 25, 2005, 10:58 PM
        RE: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] dan.mcdonald at austinenergy Feb 28, 2005, 5:09 AM
            RE: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] evan at pierce Feb 28, 2005, 5:46 AM
            RE: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] dennispe at inetnw Feb 28, 2005, 8:36 AM
                RE: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] dennispe at inetnw Feb 28, 2005, 8:43 AM
                    Re: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] betsy.schwartz at gmail Feb 28, 2005, 11:30 AM
                        Re: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] mattf at bauchan Mar 1, 2005, 5:52 AM
                            Re: Clueless Newbies [was: (no subject)] dennispe at inetnw Mar 1, 2005, 6:23 AM
    Re: (no subject) clamav-users at plumlee Feb 26, 2005, 7:28 AM
    Re: (no subject) mattf at bauchan May 17, 2005, 2:50 PM
    Re: (no subject) dennispe at inetnw May 17, 2005, 3:02 PM
    Re: (no subject) bdm at fenrir Oct 9, 2005, 6:50 AM
        Re: (no subject) webmaster at kf6plh Oct 9, 2005, 9:45 AM
    Re: (no subject) bdm at fenrir Oct 9, 2005, 3:17 PM
    Re: (no subject) jmaul at elih Jul 26, 2006, 10:35 AM
    Re: (no subject) cswiger at mac Jul 26, 2006, 10:37 AM
    Re: (no subject) DStaal at usa Jul 26, 2006, 10:46 AM
    Re: (no subject) fedora at drussell Jul 26, 2006, 10:48 AM
    Re: (no subject) oboltus at bigmir Oct 23, 2007, 12:30 AM
        Re: (no subject) rob.macgregor at gmail Oct 23, 2007, 1:13 AM
    Re: (no subject) oboltus at bigmir Oct 23, 2007, 4:18 AM
        Re: (no subject) rob.macgregor at gmail Oct 23, 2007, 5:00 AM
    Re: (no subject) edwintorok at gmail Apr 16, 2010, 12:37 AM
        Re: (no subject) steve at greengecko Apr 16, 2010, 12:54 AM
            Re: (no subject) spiro at knossos Apr 18, 2010, 1:27 PM
                Re: (no subject) bitfuzzy at campbus Apr 18, 2010, 1:40 PM
                    Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 18, 2010, 2:03 PM
                        Re: (no subject) bitfuzzy at campbus Apr 18, 2010, 2:39 PM
                            Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 18, 2010, 2:45 PM
                Re: (no subject) dennispe at inetnw Apr 18, 2010, 1:43 PM
                Re: (no subject) steve.wray at cwa Apr 20, 2010, 7:36 PM
                    Re: (no subject) Jason.Haar at trimble Apr 20, 2010, 8:19 PM
                    Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 20, 2010, 8:24 PM
                        Re: (no subject) steve.wray at cwa Apr 20, 2010, 8:31 PM
                            Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 20, 2010, 8:34 PM
                                Re: (no subject) lists at retrochoons Apr 20, 2010, 11:10 PM
                                    Re: (no subject) mslucas at taos-it Apr 20, 2010, 11:27 PM
                            Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 20, 2010, 8:38 PM
                                Re: (no subject) francesco at fampeeters Apr 20, 2010, 11:00 PM
                        Re: (no subject) mslucas at taos-it Apr 20, 2010, 11:20 PM
                    Re: (no subject) dave-usenet at djwcomputers Apr 20, 2010, 11:24 PM
                    Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 12:15 AM
                        Re: (no subject) clamav.user at seibercom Apr 21, 2010, 2:30 AM
                            Re: (no subject) tbb at hideout Apr 21, 2010, 2:38 AM
                                Re: (no subject) R.Sterenborg at netsourcing Apr 21, 2010, 3:18 AM
                                Re: (no subject) steveb_clamav at sanesecurity Apr 21, 2010, 3:30 AM
                            Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 8:45 AM
                                Re: (no subject) rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 9:41 AM
                                    Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 11:08 AM
                                Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 2:11 PM
                        Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 9:16 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 9:26 AM
                                Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") rob.macgregor at gmail Apr 21, 2010, 9:45 AM
                                Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") bill at inetmsg Apr 21, 2010, 10:45 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 10:48 AM
                                Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") bill at inetmsg Apr 21, 2010, 10:56 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") jonnykent at gmail Apr 21, 2010, 10:51 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 11:08 AM
                                Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") bill at inetmsg Apr 21, 2010, 11:13 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 11:15 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 11:30 AM
                            Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 11:44 AM
                                Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 4:25 PM
                                Re: illegal or not, make a valid argument (was "no subject") dave-usenet at djwcomputers Apr 21, 2010, 6:22 PM
                        Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 1:53 PM
                        Re: (no subject) boheme at gmail Apr 21, 2010, 6:02 PM
                    Re: (no subject) spiro at knossos Apr 21, 2010, 12:50 PM
                        Re: (no subject) steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 1:19 PM
                            Re: (no subject) spiro at knossos Apr 21, 2010, 1:36 PM
                                Re: (no subject) steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 1:44 PM
                            Re: (no subject) chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 1:39 PM
                                Re: (no subject) bonivart at opencsw Apr 21, 2010, 1:46 PM
                            Re: (no subject) bitfuzzy at campbus Apr 21, 2010, 2:03 PM
                            Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 4:43 PM
    Re: (no subject) tkojm at clamav Apr 16, 2010, 2:07 AM
    Re: (no subject) clamav-users at uchange Apr 16, 2010, 2:09 AM
        Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 16, 2010, 3:59 AM
            Re: (no subject) spiro at knossos Apr 18, 2010, 1:38 PM
                Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 18, 2010, 3:26 PM
                    Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 19, 2010, 9:22 AM
                        Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 19, 2010, 11:14 AM
                        Re: (no subject) dennispe at inetnw Apr 19, 2010, 5:28 PM
                            Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 19, 2010, 11:48 PM
                            Re: (no subject) bernd at petrovitsch Apr 20, 2010, 1:45 AM
    Re: (no subject) tkojm at clamav Apr 16, 2010, 2:32 AM
    Re: (no subject) edwintorok at gmail Apr 16, 2010, 3:22 AM
        Re: (no subject) leolistas at solutti Apr 16, 2010, 5:15 AM
            Re: (no subject) francis.stevens at bristow Apr 16, 2010, 6:10 AM
        Re: (no subject) jobst at barrett May 2, 2010, 10:24 PM
    Re: (no subject) lists at retrochoons Apr 20, 2010, 11:35 PM
        Re: (no subject) mort at chalmers Apr 21, 2010, 1:20 AM
            Re: (no subject) linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 2:26 AM
        Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 6:54 AM
        Re: Clubbing a deceased equine chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 7:50 AM
            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 8:28 AM
            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine eray.aslan at caf Apr 21, 2010, 9:04 AM
                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 9:12 AM
                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 9:27 AM
                        Re: Clubbing a deceased equine chris at westnet Apr 21, 2010, 11:53 AM
                            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine steveb_clamav at sanesecurity Apr 21, 2010, 1:19 PM
                                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine clamav at clubneon Apr 21, 2010, 1:26 PM
                        Re: Clubbing a deceased equine rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 12:12 PM
                            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine linux at thehobsons Apr 21, 2010, 12:34 PM
                                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine cswiger at mac Apr 21, 2010, 12:49 PM
                                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 12:56 PM
                                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine eray.aslan at caf Apr 21, 2010, 1:23 PM
                        Re: Clubbing a deceased equine chupacerveza at gmail Apr 21, 2010, 6:55 PM
                            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 8:03 PM
                                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine dennispe at inetnw Apr 21, 2010, 8:20 PM
                                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine dennispe at inetnw Apr 21, 2010, 8:24 PM
                                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine conrad at enetworks Apr 21, 2010, 8:44 PM
                                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine eray.aslan at caf Apr 21, 2010, 11:39 PM
                                        Re: Clubbing a deceased equine jimlinux at commspeed Apr 22, 2010, 7:18 AM
                                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine linux at thehobsons Apr 22, 2010, 1:39 AM
                                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine jarif at iki Apr 21, 2010, 9:10 PM
                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine chupacerveza at gmail Apr 21, 2010, 2:48 PM
                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 4:58 PM
                        Re: Clubbing a deceased equine steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 5:42 PM
                            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 6:08 PM
                                Re: Clubbing a deceased equine steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 6:19 PM
                                    Re: Clubbing a deceased equine jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 6:21 PM
            Re: Clubbing a deceased equine eray.aslan at caf Apr 21, 2010, 10:50 PM
        Re: (no subject) rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 8:59 AM
    Re: (no subject) skraw at ithnet Apr 21, 2010, 1:29 AM
    Re: (no subject) steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 1:51 PM
        Re: (no subject) spiro at knossos Apr 21, 2010, 2:07 PM
            Re: (no subject) steve.wray at cwa Apr 21, 2010, 2:09 PM
                Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 4:56 PM
            Re: (no subject) steve at greengecko Apr 21, 2010, 2:51 PM
                Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 5:00 PM
                    Re: (no subject) steve at greengecko Apr 21, 2010, 5:08 PM
                        Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 6:04 PM
                            Re: (no subject) rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 10:06 PM
                                Re: (no subject) dennispe at inetnw Apr 21, 2010, 10:08 PM
                Re: (no subject) rostetter at mail Apr 21, 2010, 8:59 PM
        Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 4:52 PM
    Re: (no subject) jimlinux at commspeed Apr 21, 2010, 6:09 PM
    Re: (no subject) alvarnell at mac Nov 8, 2010, 2:39 PM
    Re: (no subject) edwin+ml-clamav at etorok Mar 3, 2012, 7:16 AM
        Re: (no subject) jayzon915 at gmail Mar 3, 2012, 7:28 AM
    Re: (no subject) jesler at sourcefire May 11, 2012, 10:40 AM
    Re: (no subject) alvarnell at mac Oct 17, 2012, 12:28 AM
    Re: (no subject) StEwert at c-onServices Oct 17, 2012, 5:28 AM
    Re: (no subject) azidouemba at sourcefire Oct 17, 2012, 6:16 AM

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