Mailing List Archive: ClamAV: users

Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically

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njh at bandsman

Aug 25, 2004, 7:12 AM

Post #1 of 16 (5916 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically

On Wednesday 25 Aug 2004 12:09, Andy Fiddaman wrote:

> I'd be interested in running one of these if the database team would be
> willing to push updates out to a private mirror. (A percentage of the
> revenue generated would then be fed back into the ClamAV project!)

Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?

> A.

--
Nigel Horne. Arranger, Composer, Typesetter.
NJH Music, Barnsley, UK. ICQ#20252325
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slebrun at muskoka

Aug 25, 2004, 7:47 AM

Post #2 of 16 (5684 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

> Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
>
Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
purchase/access system?

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clam at fiddaman

Aug 25, 2004, 9:00 AM

Post #3 of 16 (5695 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Shayne Lebrun wrote:

; > Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
; >
; Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
; purchase/access system?

That about covers it. To be worth anything, the mirror farm would have to
be able to support simultaneous download of main.cvd to all subscribers.
If users can query every 5 minutes, the statistical multiplexing which the
existing mirrors rely on to spread the load doesn't occur.

While I don't mind providing some of my server time and bandwidth free of
charge to the project*, this type of service would require some money
putting back into it for extra equipment, rack space & bandwidth.

* I did look at setting up a mirror until I saw the current bandwidth
requirements (we have multiple fast connections but pay for excess bandwidth)

A.

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dennispe at inetnw

Aug 25, 2004, 10:35 AM

Post #4 of 16 (5733 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

Nigel Horne wrote:
> On Wednesday 25 Aug 2004 12:09, Andy Fiddaman wrote:
>
>
>>I'd be interested in running one of these if the database team would be
>>willing to push updates out to a private mirror. (A percentage of the
>>revenue generated would then be fed back into the ClamAV project!)
>
>
> Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
>
>
>>A.

The total product is improved when all participants are able to recover or
offset their costs in supporting the product. I see nothing wrong, for example,
with me paying ClamAV an agreed upon fee to push updates to me immediately when
they are available. As a franchisee it is now my option to try to recover my
costs and I may choose to do so by advertising a push service for a fee in
addition to offering a free polling mirror to any *non-abusers*. I may even
offer other services such as installation design and trouble-shooting. The
result is the best possible service to those who have the need and are willing
to pay a small amount for it and for those who wish a free but lower grade service.

As someone who watches days go by without seeing new pattern files for my
TrendMicro AV systems (which seems to refute my point above), I am more than
impressed by the volume of updates that come from ClamAV. I'd very much like
that to continue.

Just so everyone understands, there are people who are already paying for this
service. Every volunteer is out of pocket for their effort as indicated here:

http://www.clamav.net/donate.html

I can't imagine they will all continue paying out of pocket, particularly if the
service they provide is abused by people who craft clever scripts in a "me
first" manner meant to circumvent the as desired usage of the service. When
volunteers come and go you have a marginally stabile system.

BTW, in my reading of all the docs and online chat there is an acceptable use
policy implied, but it really should be codified and agreed to by the users.

dp

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njh at bandsman

Aug 25, 2004, 10:41 AM

Post #5 of 16 (5705 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

> > Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
> >
> Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
> purchase/access system?

Welcome to the area of open source...

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dennispe at inetnw

Aug 25, 2004, 10:41 AM

Post #6 of 16 (5698 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

Shayne Lebrun wrote:
>>Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
>>
>
> Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
> purchase/access system?
>

And liability insurance.

dp

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fajar at telkom

Aug 25, 2004, 11:23 AM

Post #7 of 16 (5729 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

Dennis Peterson wrote:

> Shayne Lebrun wrote:
>
>>> Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
>>>
>>
>> Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
>> purchase/access system?
>>
>
> And liability insurance.
>
Hmm ...

which makes me wonder.
Say ...
1) I host an official public mirror, which makes me able to obtain
updates immediately
2) I sell the "immediate push-update" service that you talk about
3) I contribute some money that I get back to clamav
4) I setup atomated firewall system which automagically blocks
non-paying users which connects to my server too often (perhaps in less
30 minutes interval).

I wonder if it's acceptable in terms of license ?
License-wise, (3) might not even be necessary. Do people who provide
commercial support form clamav actually contributes some money that they
earn? Not all, I think.
(4) might be a problem, since it might violate some requirements of
becoming a public mirror (the docs doesnt't specifically prevent that
though).

Regards,

Fajar

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slebrun at muskoka

Aug 25, 2004, 11:39 AM

Post #8 of 16 (5678 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

> > Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
> > purchase/access system?
> >
>
> And liability insurance.
>
Aye, good point. Especially if you're going to be hoping to sell to
corporate clients.

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slebrun at muskoka

Aug 25, 2004, 11:39 AM

Post #9 of 16 (5696 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

> > > Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
> > >
> > Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
> > purchase/access system?
>
> Welcome to the area of open source...
>
Open source is all well and good, but bandwidth still costs.

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menscher at uiuc

Aug 25, 2004, 12:11 PM

Post #10 of 16 (5711 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:

> 4) I setup atomated firewall system which automagically blocks
> non-paying users which connects to my server too often (perhaps in less
> 30 minutes interval).
>
> (4) might be a problem, since it might violate some requirements of
> becoming a public mirror (the docs doesnt't specifically prevent that
> though).

It's a problem for technical reasons also:

DNS contains ~10 mirrors, which means I can poll every 5 minutes and on
average the mirrors will individually only see requests every 50
minutes, making the individual mirrors not realize I'm being a jerk.

If anyone can think of a reasonable way to reduce the bandwidth
requirements then I can host a mirror. I've gotten approval to use 10
gig/month, and 20 gig/month might be do-able if I beg.

Damian Menscher
--
-=#| Physics Grad Student & SysAdmin @ U Illinois Urbana-Champaign |#=-
-=#| 488 LLP, 1110 W. Green St, Urbana, IL 61801 Ofc:(217)333-0038 |#=-
-=#| 4602 Beckman, VMIL/MS, Imaging Technology Group:(217)244-3074 |#=-
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-=#| The above opinions are not necessarily those of my employers. |#=-

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dennispe at inetnw

Aug 25, 2004, 2:27 PM

Post #11 of 16 (5730 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
> Dennis Peterson wrote:
>
>> Shayne Lebrun wrote:
>>
>>>> Any reason why that percentage should be less than 100?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Cost of bandwidth, cost of equipment, and cost of administrating the
>>> purchase/access system?
>>>
>>
>> And liability insurance.
>>
> Hmm ...
>
> which makes me wonder.
> Say ...
> 1) I host an official public mirror, which makes me able to obtain
> updates immediately
> 2) I sell the "immediate push-update" service that you talk about
> 3) I contribute some money that I get back to clamav
> 4) I setup atomated firewall system which automagically blocks
> non-paying users which connects to my server too often (perhaps in less
> 30 minutes interval).
>
> I wonder if it's acceptable in terms of license ?
> License-wise, (3) might not even be necessary. Do people who provide
> commercial support form clamav actually contributes some money that they
> earn? Not all, I think.
> (4) might be a problem, since it might violate some requirements of
> becoming a public mirror (the docs doesnt't specifically prevent that
> though).
>
> Regards,
>
> Fajar

All parties are willing and agreeable, and the vendor stands to make some money.
I can't imagine that would be a bad thing. I wouldn't underestimate the
importance of liability, tho.

dp

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bvo at atz

Aug 25, 2004, 11:00 PM

Post #12 of 16 (5737 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

>
>All parties are willing and agreeable, and the vendor stands to make some
>money. I can't imagine that would be a bad thing. I wouldn't underestimate
>the importance of liability, tho.

Uhhh... but then what do you think someone providing such service would be
liable for then? Unable to download an update? Or not being updated as soon
as an update arrives?
Pretty hard one because you connection might be temporarily down, a
temporarily routing problem might exist somewhere between you and the
server supposed to update your server.

If you want to be able to sue someone then why don't you use a product like
Symantec Corporate edition, or from any other large vendor? Good luck.
Clamav already gives you free support, that's much much more then you can
say about Symantec.

I have some experience with liability insurances and they will limit what
they cover as much as possible. Making an update service pretty expensive..

B.

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dennispe at inetnw

Aug 26, 2004, 6:39 AM

Post #13 of 16 (5735 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

B. van Ouwerkerk said:
>
>>
>>All parties are willing and agreeable, and the vendor stands to make some
>>money. I can't imagine that would be a bad thing. I wouldn't
>> underestimate
>>the importance of liability, tho.
>
> Uhhh... but then what do you think someone providing such service would be
> liable for then? Unable to download an update? Or not being updated as
> soon
> as an update arrives?

I think such a provider would be liable for very little - but it is very
expensive to establish that in court. Law suits are trivial to initiate
and we are in a very litigous society. If you have 10,000 customers you
can bet at least one of them will levy a suit against you for some
perceived affront and you are out of pocket without some kind of
insurance.

> Pretty hard one because you connection might be temporarily down, a
> temporarily routing problem might exist somewhere between you and the
> server supposed to update your server.

Tell it to the judge. Ka-ching!

>
> If you want to be able to sue someone then why don't you use a product
> like
> Symantec Corporate edition, or from any other large vendor?

I don't want to sue someone - I just like being protected against those
who do, and there are a lot of them out there.

>
> I have some experience with liability insurances and they will limit what
> they cover as much as possible. Making an update service pretty
> expensive..

Imagine the expense of having to be represented in court 5 or 10 times a
year.

dp

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bvo at atz

Aug 26, 2004, 7:53 AM

Post #14 of 16 (5701 views)
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Re: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

>
> > If you want to be able to sue someone then why don't you use a product
> > like
> > Symantec Corporate edition, or from any other large vendor?
>
>I don't want to sue someone - I just like being protected against those
>who do, and there are a lot of them out there.

That's why you pay so much for insurance.

> > I have some experience with liability insurances and they will limit what
> > they cover as much as possible. Making an update service pretty
> > expensive..
>
>Imagine the expense of having to be represented in court 5 or 10 times a
>year.

Yeah, and how much more expensive any update service would get to cover the
additional cost.

B.

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slebrun at muskoka

Aug 26, 2004, 12:04 PM

Post #15 of 16 (5713 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

> Uhhh... but then what do you think someone providing such service
> would be
> liable for then? Unable to download an update? Or not being
> updated as soon
> as an update arrives?
> Pretty hard one because you connection might be temporarily down, a
> temporarily routing problem might exist somewhere between you and the
> server supposed to update your server.

BigCorp contracts with you, ClamAVUpdates, for X amount of money per month
for virus updates.

ClamAVUpdates.com goes down for twenty minutes.

During that twenty minutes, a new virus comes out, and BigCorp gets infected
with it.

BigCorp then turns around and sues ClamAVUpdates for not fufilling their end
of the contract.

Yes, said contract probably included the standard 'best effort' clauses, or
maybe it's not even your fault; but this is an important point, so I'm going
to put it in it's own paragraph.

You're still going to wind up in court. Court is expensive.

So, liability insurance.

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mitch at webcob

Aug 26, 2004, 1:07 PM

Post #16 of 16 (5725 views)
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RE: Downloading clam virus definition files automatically [In reply to]

> I think such a provider would be liable for very little - but it is very
> expensive to establish that in court. Law suits are trivial to initiate
> and we are in a very litigous society. If you have 10,000 customers you
> can bet at least one of them will levy a suit against you for some
> perceived affront and you are out of pocket without some kind of
> insurance.
>

Think we're blowing things out of proproation and way off topic here... This
is ClammAV not business 101...

Liability insurance doesn't PREVENT people from suing you. It covers
SPECIFIED perils if people do, but still requires you to defend yourself in
the suit - it kicks in to pay legal costs or settle if you lose... Having a
fat liability policy can also make you a target.

And a waiver, SLA or specific contract limiting liability can close off many
of these threats.

m/

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