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madunix at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 5:10 AM

Post #1 of 12 (831 views)
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Fiber

I need to know your opinion about fiber to desk i.e. pros and cons..

Thanks in advance.
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swmike at swm

Nov 12, 2009, 5:24 AM

Post #2 of 12 (813 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, madunix wrote:

> I need to know your opinion about fiber to desk i.e. pros and cons..

Fiber is much more sensitive to dust, bending and other kind of things
that might happen day-to-day with people who don't really know or care
about data communication. It's also more expensive generally (everything
involved, NICs, switches and cables is more expensive).

Why would you want to do it? I don't really see any pros what so ever to
do it.

--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike [at] swm
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iam at st-andrews

Nov 12, 2009, 5:29 AM

Post #3 of 12 (796 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

madunix wrote:
> I need to know your opinion about fiber to desk i.e. pros and cons..
>
> Thanks in advance.
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp [at] puck
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
>
Well, it does rather depend on your requirements.

My opinion is that it's good:
where you're not allowed copper, like oil refineries
where copper cable won't work due to massive interference
where you must have runs to desktops that are over 90m (tho I've some
long runs on cat6 that work at 100M, just keep them below 200m, and use
quality cable)

Downsides are obviously:
cost of adapters for PCs
cost of fibre switches
single-technology (you don't get 10/100/1000 fibre standards, so you
have to do all one-standard)
it's more sensitive to being bashed, stood on, etc

Back in the day, when they thought copper was dead, Brand-Rex developed
a shotgun copper+blown-fibre tube called BloTwist.
(http://www.ezziengineering.com/pdf/cables/BloliteBro.pdf) . Of all the
places our local Brand-Rex guy knows they fitted it, not one has used
the fibre capability to date.

What actually is your requirement?

--
ian

Ian McDonald, ITS, University of St Andrews
The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland: SC013532

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mhuff at ox

Nov 12, 2009, 6:01 AM

Post #4 of 12 (804 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

> where you're not allowed copper, like oil refineries
> where copper cable won't work due to massive interference
> where you must have runs to desktops that are over 90m (tho I've some
> long runs on cat6 that work at 100M, just keep them below 200m, and use quality cable)

Now that 10G over copper Cat6a (802.3an 10GBASE-T) has been finalized there aren't any good reason to go with fiber except for physical requirements like Ian stated. Also Desktop fiber aggregation is much more expensive in terms of line cards, diversity of switch choices, lack of desktop NICs. Usually I hear FTTD being done to "future proof" the wiring. Most of the times the fiber never ends up being used. Cat6a is backwards compatible with 5e, so if you are doing a new wiring plant, that's enough "future proof" for the next reasonable term.

----
Matthew Huff       | One Manhattanville Rd
OTA Management LLC | Purchase, NY 10577
http://www.ox.com  | Phone: 914-460-4039
aim: matthewbhuff  | Fax:   914-460-4139
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nick at inex

Nov 12, 2009, 7:13 AM

Post #5 of 12 (790 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

On 12/11/2009 13:24, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> Why would you want to do it? I don't really see any pros what so ever to
> do it.

it's useful if you want 10G to the desk. Otherwise, it's too fragile and
sensitive for the average office environment.

Nick
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akg1330 at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 7:20 AM

Post #6 of 12 (796 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

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Hash: SHA1

madunix wrote:
> I need to know your opinion about fiber to desk i.e. pros and cons..
>
> Thanks in advance.
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp [at] puck
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/

We have an extensive fiber to the desk network.

The pros are that it allowed us to centralize equipment much farther
away from the clients than the 100m distance limitation of twisted pair.
This allowed for better port utilization, better environmentals (power
and cooling in one place rather than lots of closets)

The current plant we're on has supported us from 10BaseFL, 100BaseFX,
ATM155, and will continue to support us through 1000BaseX (though we
might run into some distance limitations on some of our stations). So,
the plant has last much longer than a copper plant would have.

Cons:
The electronics are more expensive: fiber switchports will cost mor and
you'll need media converters or fiber NICs, the fiber patch cords are
more expensive.

Connectors: There has been one copper connector for twisted pair
ethernet, while we have several for fiber

No speed negotiation: we do have some devices that are 10Base-T only or
100Base-T only, so that presents a challenge (different client equipment
to allow for rate adaptation.

New problems that are arising:
No realistic PoE option: we have a growing demand for network powered
devices (APs and phones). There are power injecting media converters,
but they are more expensive.

What specifically is leading you to FTTD?

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koug at intracom

Nov 12, 2009, 7:38 AM

Post #7 of 12 (796 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

>
> it's useful if you want 10G to the desk. Otherwise, it's too fragile and
> sensitive for the average office environment.
>

Maybe plastic optical fibers are not so fragile/sensitive, but I haven't
seen them in production

John
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madunix at gmail

Nov 12, 2009, 8:12 AM

Post #8 of 12 (791 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

am just trying to take advantage of using light technologies in LAN
for our new building, due to long distance between the offices over
90m, i know fiber is fast expensive and copper gigabit still far
cheaper, and fiber to desktop isn't required for a majority of
applications.

Thanks

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Matthew Huff <mhuff [at] ox> wrote:
>> where you're not allowed copper, like oil refineries
>> where copper cable won't work due to massive interference
>> where you must have runs to desktops that are over 90m (tho I've some
>> long runs on cat6 that work at 100M, just keep them below 200m, and use quality cable)
>
> Now that 10G over copper Cat6a (802.3an 10GBASE-T) has been finalized there aren't any good reason to go with fiber except for physical requirements like Ian stated. Also Desktop fiber aggregation is much more expensive in terms of line cards, diversity of switch choices, lack of desktop NICs. Usually I hear FTTD being done to "future proof" the wiring. Most of the times the fiber never ends up being used. Cat6a is backwards compatible with 5e, so if you are doing a new wiring plant, that's enough "future proof" for the next reasonable term.
>
> ----
> Matthew Huff       | One Manhattanville Rd
> OTA Management LLC | Purchase, NY 10577
> http://www.ox.com  | Phone: 914-460-4039
> aim: matthewbhuff  | Fax:   914-460-4139
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list  cisco-nsp [at] puck
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
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mawhi at vestas

Nov 12, 2009, 8:50 AM

Post #9 of 12 (792 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cisco-nsp-bounces [at] puck
> [mailto:cisco-nsp-bounces [at] puck] On Behalf Of John Kougoulos
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:38 AM
> To: Nick Hilliard
> Cc: cisco-nsp [at] puck
> Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Fiber
>
> >
> > it's useful if you want 10G to the desk. Otherwise, it's
> too fragile and
> > sensitive for the average office environment.
> >

Don't forget the wiring closet side. Much more care needs to be taken with designing a structured cabling layout for fiber than for copper. With the added cost for patch cords, etc... I don't see any advantages over copper.

-mtw
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mtinka at globaltransit

Nov 12, 2009, 8:51 AM

Post #10 of 12 (787 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

On Thursday 12 November 2009 09:10:02 pm madunix wrote:

> I need to know your opinion about fiber to desk i.e. pros
> and cons..

I tend to agree with Matthew and the others that have
commented on this.

The issue of distance and bandwidth notwithstanding, we've
experienced situations where delivering fibre to somebody's
home or desk is considered more for marketing mileage than
any technical reasons. However, that also tends to set you
up for a potential PR disaster since customers tend to "eat
that **** up", and misunderstand it at the same time.

Unless you're trying to solve a distance problem, and/or
your customer requires anything more than 1Gbps (well,
Cat-6a, as others have mentioned, has been standardized -
but diffusion may take a while) then consider copper.
Otherwise, the additional potential cost in maintaining it
does not really justify passing over copper solutions, IMHO.

Moreover, fibre deployments to the home or desk require CPE,
which, in very many cases, speak copper on the other end. So
what's really the point? Needless to say, laptops, routers,
switches, set-top boxes, wi-fi AP's, PC's, Mac's, game
consoles, Tv's, e.t.c., all ship with RJ-45 dual- or tri-
rate copper ports as standard these days. So no need for
CPE, no need for additional customer training, e.t.c.

<digress>

Again, distance and bandwidth notwithstanding, this, in my
mind, tends to question the long-term sustainability of
FTTH, either through PON (Passive Optical Networks) or
Active Ethernet. Since FTTH is looked at as a potential
replacement for regular ADSL (i.e., consumer broadband), how
many users can eat up a 1Gbps connection, assuming their ISP
let them? This is not considering bandwidth used by IPTv and
such, as customers buy channels for IPTv services, not
bandwidth to drive the channels (that's the service
provider's problem).

</digress>

Cheers,

Mark.
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gtb at slac

Nov 12, 2009, 9:03 AM

Post #11 of 12 (795 views)
Permalink
Re: Fiber [In reply to]

> I need to know your opinion about fiber to desk i.e. pros and cons..

If one needs fiber for distance, electrical isolation,
limited space/cooling for access switches, etc., one
may want to look at various FTTx technologies (xPON and
friends) which can provide fiber to "near" the desk with a
relatively low cost drop to copper (the ONT) at the desk.
Note that FTTx is (mostly) a residential subscriber type
of solution (more bandwidth *to* the desk than from it),
and that may not meet the needs of servers or "power
users" (that are really more like servers). As with all
else, your particular situation will vary.

A presentation by Sandia at the Internet2/ESCC Joint
Techs meeting in Indiana in June of 2009 discussed their
particular FTTx plans (and may provide some thoughts):
http://www.internet2.edu/presentations/jt2009jul/20090720-brenkosh.pdf

Gary
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mtinka at globaltransit

Nov 12, 2009, 9:04 AM

Post #12 of 12 (787 views)
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Re: Fiber [In reply to]

On Friday 13 November 2009 12:12:47 am madunix wrote:

> am just trying to take advantage of using light
> technologies in LAN for our new building, due to long
> distance between the offices over 90m, i know fiber is
> fast expensive and copper gigabit still far cheaper, and
> fiber to desktop isn't required for a majority of
> applications.

If the cost of deploying a fibre-based LAN (in terms of
fibre spools, optics, CPE/converters, NIC's, maintenance,
e.t.c.) outweighs the cost of doing a FTTB (Basement) and
feeding trunk fibre pairs up to strategically-positioned
copper-based Ethernet switches where you're not having to
worry about cable distance to users, then you have your
answer.

Else, you'd need to make the hard choices :-).

And don't just look at capex. Consider opex too (both
financial and otherwise).

Cheers,

Mark.
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