Mailing List Archive: Cherokee: users

[Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin

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stefan at konink

Aug 26, 2011, 7:52 AM

Post #1 of 16 (615 views)
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[Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin

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Dear Cherokee users,

Sadly we are not on one continent, and not able to sit all in the same
space to talk about issues that matter. One of these issue is for
example the naming of rules and their properties in our Cherokee-admin.
Given that I am the Dutch translator I have asked Alvaro how Final vs
Non-Final should be interpreted in a different language, and if this
translation should be as close as the naming in English.

This opens the door for the question: is the English naming how it
should be? And if it is, is it intuitive enough for most users, and newbies.

Because it is one of the most fundamental things to understand in
Cherokee, (you can't doing PHP without it is a pain ;) I would like to
open a discussion:

What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?

To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
as transparent, inherit, etc.

I hope we can streamline this thread to this specific naming. More
subjects can come later :) Mailinglists are free ;)

Stefan
_______________________________________________
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Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

alvaro at octality

Aug 26, 2011, 8:04 AM

Post #2 of 16 (617 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Hello Stefan,

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink> wrote:

>
> This opens the door for the question: is the English naming how it
> should be? And if it is, is it intuitive enough for most users, and
> newbies.
>
> Because it is one of the most fundamental things to understand in
> Cherokee, (you can't doing PHP without it is a pain ;) I would like to
> open a discussion:
>
> What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?
>

First of all, thank you for kicking of this discussion.

To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
> as transparent, inherit, etc.
>
> I hope we can streamline this thread to this specific naming. More
> subjects can come later :) Mailinglists are free ;)
>

I'd also like to invite people to discuss potential improvements for the GUI
regarding the handle of the Behavior rule lists. The evaluation system
itself will not be changed, but I'm sure we can come up with some usability
improvements over the current interface that would make a difference.

Cheers!

--
Greetings, alo
http://www.octality.com/

pchott at gmail

Aug 26, 2011, 10:14 AM

Post #3 of 16 (614 views)
Permalink

Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Hi all,

i came from apache htaccess and at first look i had problem due that in
htacces is "last" mark for final. Maybe add tip on help "Called last in
htaccess"

And i agree that non-final can be confusing. transparent can also be
confusing, maybe is really inherit the optimum of this, i hope for some
other ideas.

Regards,
Jan

On Fri, 2011-08-26 at 17:04 +0200, Alvaro Lopez Ortega wrote:
> Hello Stefan,
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink>
> wrote:
>
> This opens the door for the question: is the English naming
> how it
> should be? And if it is, is it intuitive enough for most
> users, and newbies.
>
> Because it is one of the most fundamental things to understand
> in
> Cherokee, (you can't doing PHP without it is a pain ;) I would
> like to
> open a discussion:
>
> What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?
>
> First of all, thank you for kicking of this discussion.
>
>
> To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to
> think it
> as transparent, inherit, etc.
>
> I hope we can streamline this thread to this specific naming.
> More
> subjects can come later :) Mailinglists are free ;)
>
> I'd also like to invite people to discuss potential improvements for
> the GUI regarding the handle of the Behavior rule lists. The
> evaluation system itself will not be changed, but I'm sure we can come
> up with some usability improvements over the current interface that
> would make a difference.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Greetings, alo
> http://www.octality.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cherokee [at] lists
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

r.hartmann at wabnitz

Aug 28, 2011, 11:57 PM

Post #4 of 16 (597 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final inCherokee-Admin [In reply to]

> What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?

Final is probably ok.

How about Passing/Passed for non-Final?
_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

me at pigmej

Aug 29, 2011, 1:19 AM

Post #5 of 16 (599 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink> wrote:
> To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
> as transparent, inherit, etc.

Final is OK
non-Final is also OK for me. But agree it can be confusing but with
change of 'non-Final' the 'Final' should be changed also. Maybe for
Final => Last
non-Final => Pass

I would definitely go for changing both or none of Final/non-Final.

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak
_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

hvazquez at pentest

Aug 29, 2011, 2:58 AM

Post #6 of 16 (596 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

I agree with Jędrzej. Final/non-Final is confusing, but changing only one
of them -non-Final- could be even more confusing. The best thing would be
changing both or none.

"Last" and "Pass" seems to be more intuitive.

Probably, native english people would be the best to decide this...

Also, we should take into account, not only the real and strict meaning of
the word, but also the historical background in the IT field for similar
cases.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:19:23 +0200, Jędrzej Nowak <me [at] pigmej> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink>
> wrote:
>> To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
>> as transparent, inherit, etc.
>
> Final is OK
> non-Final is also OK for me. But agree it can be confusing but with
> change of 'non-Final' the 'Final' should be changed also. Maybe for
> Final => Last
> non-Final => Pass
>
> I would definitely go for changing both or none of Final/non-Final.
>
> Greetings,
> Jędrzej Nowak
> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cherokee [at] lists
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

--
---------------------

Hugo Vázquez Caramés

"El trabajo que nunca se empieza es el que tarda más en finalizarse" (J.
R. R. Tolkien)

"La mayoría de las personas gastan más tiempo y energías en hablar de los
problemas que en afrontarlos" (Henry Ford)

"Lo imposible es el fantasma de los tímidos y el refugio de los cobardes"
(N. Bonaparte)

========================================================
PENTEST Consultores
Tel: 93 3962070 / Fax: 93 3962001
e-mail: hvazquez [at] pentest
========================================================
Gane credibilidad y confianza, visite http://www.pentest.es

Este e-mail es confidencial y destinado únicamente a la persona a la cual
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_______________________________________________
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http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

nhytro at googlemail

Aug 29, 2011, 4:20 AM

Post #7 of 16 (596 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

+1 "Last" and "Pass"

stefan at konink

Aug 29, 2011, 4:54 AM

Post #8 of 16 (609 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:

> +1 "Last" and "Pass"

But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass'
mean, it could even mean 'disabled'.

Stefan
_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

me at pigmej

Aug 29, 2011, 4:59 AM

Post #9 of 16 (594 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Pass is quite popular for example in python it means something like
"nothing" just behave normally and go to the next thing.

So Pass exactly cover what currently 'non-final' does ;) Apply all,
but go to the next execution, and it's completelly different thing
than 'disabled' ;)

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:
>
>> +1 "Last" and "Pass"
>
>
> But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass' mean,
> it could even mean 'disabled'.
>
> Stefan
>
_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

alvaro at octality

Aug 29, 2011, 5:28 AM

Post #10 of 16 (594 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink> wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:
>
> +1 "Last" and "Pass"
>>
>
> But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass' mean,
> it could even mean 'disabled'.
>

I do not like pass much, actually.

I've been thinking about something like "Final" and "Properties". At the end
of the day, the use of non-final rules is to set properties along the
evaluation chain.

--
Greetings, alo
http://www.octality.com/

me at pigmej

Aug 29, 2011, 5:33 AM

Post #11 of 16 (595 views)
Permalink

Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
also)

Pozdrawiam
Jędrzej Nowak

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Alvaro Lopez Ortega
<alvaro [at] octality> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan [at] konink> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:
>>
>>> +1 "Last" and "Pass"
>>
>> But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass'
>> mean, it could even mean 'disabled'.
>
> I do not like pass much, actually.
> I've been thinking about something like "Final" and "Properties". At the end
> of the day, the use of non-final rules is to set properties along the
> evaluation chain.
>
> --
> Greetings, alo
> http://www.octality.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cherokee [at] lists
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee
>
>
_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

alvaro at octality

Aug 29, 2011, 6:29 AM

Post #12 of 16 (590 views)
Permalink

Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Hello Jędrzej,

2011/8/29 Jędrzej Nowak <me [at] pigmej>

> Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
> better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
> also)
>

For me "Last" would be kind of confusing though.

In my understanding the main meaning of "last" refers to a position: The one
at the end on a line or queue. Taking that into account, it would not make
much sense to find something marked as "Last" in the middle of a group.

We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
match" and "Continue on match".

--
Greetings, alo
http://www.octality.com/

me at pigmej

Aug 29, 2011, 6:34 AM

Post #13 of 16 (594 views)
Permalink

Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

I said Last because of Apache for example ;-)

Maybe some kind of
"Continue" + "Break" as in programming languages... described as
"Continue rules execution' and 'Break rules execution'

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak

2011/8/29 Alvaro Lopez Ortega <alvaro [at] octality>:
> Hello Jędrzej,
>
> 2011/8/29 Jędrzej Nowak <me [at] pigmej>
>>
>> Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
>> better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
>> also)
>
> For me "Last" would be kind of confusing though.
> In my understanding the main meaning of "last" refers to a position: The one
> at the end on a line or queue. Taking that into account, it would not make
> much sense to find something marked as "Last" in the middle of a group.
> We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
> match" and "Continue on match".
> --
> Greetings, alo
> http://www.octality.com/
>
_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
Cherokee [at] lists
http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

hvazquez at pentest

Aug 29, 2011, 6:51 AM

Post #14 of 16 (591 views)
Permalink

Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

Hi,

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:29:52 +0200, Alvaro Lopez Ortega
<alvaro [at] octality> wrote:

> Hello Jędrzej,
>
> 2011/8/29 Jędrzej Nowak <me [at] pigmej>
>
>> Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
>> better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
>> also)
>>
>
> For me "Last" would be kind of confusing though.
>
> In my understanding the main meaning of "last" refers to a position: The
> one
> at the end on a line or queue. Taking that into account, it would not
> make
> much sense to find something marked as "Last" in the middle of a group.
>
> We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
> match" and "Continue on match".

Yes. "Stop on match" and "Continue on match" is much easier to understand
for newbies!

You all should think about people not used to work with Cherokee nor
Apache or other... One of the best things I have found in Cherokee is it's
intuitive interface. Some people -many old HTTP server users- do not like
intuitive interfaces, some times because it allows "standard" users do
powerful things without having to touch a single line of configuration
files, so there's no need to be a "guru". I have worked with almost any
-serious- web server developed since 90's, and can tell that the easier is
to configure a web server, the less prone to errors is... So simplicity is
a great. "Stop on match" and "Continue on match" are friendly to most
languages, so there should be no "lost in translation" surprises...

Great idea Alvaro.

>

--
---------------------

Hugo Vázquez Caramés

"El trabajo que nunca se empieza es el que tarda más en finalizarse" (J.
R. R. Tolkien)

"La mayoría de las personas gastan más tiempo y energías en hablar de los
problemas que en afrontarlos" (Henry Ford)

"Lo imposible es el fantasma de los tímidos y el refugio de los cobardes"
(N. Bonaparte)

========================================================
PENTEST Consultores
Tel: 93 3962070 / Fax: 93 3962001
e-mail: hvazquez [at] pentest
========================================================
Gane credibilidad y confianza, visite http://www.pentest.es

Este e-mail es confidencial y destinado únicamente a la persona a la cual
va dirigido. Si Ud. no es el destinatario al cual va dirigido este e-mail
o lo recibe por error, queda advertido que cualquier uso,
difusión,impresión o copia de este mensaje está estrictamente prohibido.
Si lo ha recibido por error, por favor, notifíquelo al remitente del
mensaje

This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
individual to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended
recipient,be advised that you have received this email in error and that
any use,dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please
notify it to sender.

_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
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http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

js at yllq

Sep 5, 2011, 3:06 PM

Post #15 of 16 (560 views)
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Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 15:29 +0200, Alvaro Lopez Ortega wrote:

>
>
> We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
> match" and "Continue on match".

Spot on! +2 ;)

--
Mateusz Pawlowski <js [at] yllq>

_______________________________________________
Cherokee mailing list
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http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

sk.random2 at gmail

Sep 5, 2011, 10:29 PM

Post #16 of 16 (555 views)
Permalink

Re: [Discussion] The naming of Final vs Non-Final in Cherokee-Admin [In reply to]

I think any succinct language here will likely lead to some form of
ambiguity, and as previously mentioned, the only way around this is to use
something lengthier. The problem with this is that you end up likely
repeating yourself as terms become verbose. I think simplicity in the terms
is best (eg something like Final vs Pass-Through) and have something as
close as possible (because IMHO there's no one right answer).

Maybe provide something like tooltips and easily accessible documentation.
I could see having the something like the current Final/Non-Final button in
the left-hand listing, but also have another tab against each rule which
could describe the differences.

My 2 cents worth :)

-- David

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