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Debian recommendation

 

 

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lists at evancarroll

Oct 27, 2009, 5:14 PM

Post #26 of 38 (727 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

> Then I suppose it's a good thing that no such thing happens.

Sure it happens;
ecarroll[at]x60s:~$ diff /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0/XML/SAX.pm
/usr/share/perl5/XML/SAX.pm -C5
*** /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0/XML/SAX.pm 2008-08-05 07:36:24.000000000 -0500
--- /usr/share/perl5/XML/SAX.pm 2009-04-29 08:28:25.000000000 -0500
***************
*** 177,186 ****
--- 177,195 ----
}

sub save_parsers {
my $class = shift;

+ ### DEBIAN MODIFICATION
+ print "\n";
+ print "Please use 'update-perl-sax-parsers(8) to register this
parser.'\n";
+ print "See /usr/share/doc/libxml-sax-perl/README.Debian.gz for
more info.\n";
+ print "\n";
+
+ return $class; # rest of the function is disabled on Debian.
+ ### END DEBIAN MODIFICATION
+
# get directory from wherever XML::SAX is installed
my $dir = $INC{'XML/SAX.pm'};
$dir = dirname($dir);

my $file = File::Spec->catfile($dir, "SAX", PARSER_DETAILS);
***************
*** 204,213 ****
--- 213,256 ----
close $fh;

return $class;
}

--
Evan Carroll
System Lord of the Internets
http://www.evancarroll.com

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andrew at cleverdomain

Oct 27, 2009, 5:45 PM

Post #27 of 38 (727 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On Tuesday 27 October 2009 07:14:02 pm Evan Carroll wrote:
> > Then I suppose it's a good thing that no such thing happens.
>
> Sure it happens;

Taking the world's most goddamn *stupid*, unpredictable, and un-packageable
code and turning it into something that's actually *maintainable* and meets
the most minimum guidelines for a well-behaved package is not "taking
something and knowingly breaking it", it's saving me from having to do violent
things to people.

And the changes don't break anything unless you do something fundamentally
stupid, like touching the files with the big NOT YOURS signs on them. (i.e.
running CPAN as root.)

Andrew

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jshirley at gmail

Oct 27, 2009, 7:25 PM

Post #28 of 38 (727 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Andrew Rodland <andrew[at]cleverdomain.org>wrote:

> On Tuesday 27 October 2009 07:14:02 pm Evan Carroll wrote:
> > > Then I suppose it's a good thing that no such thing happens.
> >
> > Sure it happens;
>
> Taking the world's most goddamn *stupid*, unpredictable, and un-packageable
> code and turning it into something that's actually *maintainable* and meets
> the most minimum guidelines for a well-behaved package is not "taking
> something and knowingly breaking it", it's saving me from having to do
> violent
> things to people.
>
> And the changes don't break anything unless you do something fundamentally
> stupid, like touching the files with the big NOT YOURS signs on them. (i.e.
> running CPAN as root.)
>
>
Please don't feed the trolls.

Evan's typical MO is to take a single example and convert it into a grossly
inflammatory statement. Whether it is intentional or not is irrelevant, but
it usually ends up with incensing people just like you.

This is why he's banned nearly everywhere he goes.

-J


lists at evancarroll

Oct 28, 2009, 8:44 AM

Post #29 of 38 (720 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

> Please don't feed the trolls.

Point well taken, good one, mature.

> Evan's typical MO is to take a single example and convert it into a grossly
> inflammatory statement.  Whether it is intentional or not is irrelevant, but
> it usually ends up with incensing people just like you.

That comes up every now and then, so I'll assume it is at least party
me; but, I just would rather it not be ok to package something in such
a fashion as to cause numerous problems (evidenced by the 20 something
bugs on Launchpad, and probably 10 bugs on bugs.debian) -- for the
same reason I'd be less inclined to use a module on CPAN if I knew it
had adverse effects. Forking a module isn't even socially OK,
modifying a namespace of something you don't own is a visceral Perl
sin.

ardo[at]debian.org (2002)
"We don't have a policy about Debian and CPAN to coexist. This
certainly doesn't mean they should not, but it's not a requirement at
this point in time. Please bring this issue up at the debian-perl
mailing list. [...] So, unfortunately this is hopefully one of the
rare occasions where Debian and CPAN cannot coexist out of the box.
[...] If you install software under /usr/local which also is already
available under /usr and made to work within the Debian framework,
you're probably in for more situations like this."

I don't think I'm being hostile here. But I would like to add however
axillary to the conversation these Debian patches are not always
flawless
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=430118

> This is why he's banned nearly everywhere he goes.

Ouch, got me again champ! That's what I like about you, you keep it
quick and personal!

--
Evan Carroll
System Lord of the Internets
http://www.evancarroll.com

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alejandro.imass at gmail

Oct 28, 2009, 9:44 AM

Post #30 of 38 (719 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:25 PM, J. Shirley <jshirley[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Andrew Rodland <andrew[at]cleverdomain.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday 27 October 2009 07:14:02 pm Evan Carroll wrote:
>> > > Then I suppose it's a good thing that no such thing happens.
>> >
>> > Sure it happens;
>>
>> Taking the world's most goddamn *stupid*, unpredictable, and
>> un-packageable
>> code and turning it into something that's actually *maintainable* and
>> meets
>> the most minimum guidelines for a well-behaved package is not "taking
>> something and knowingly breaking it", it's saving me from having to do
>> violent
>> things to people.
>>
>> And the changes don't break anything unless you do something fundamentally
>> stupid, like touching the files with the big NOT YOURS signs on them.
>> (i.e.
>> running CPAN as root.)
>>
>
> Please don't feed the trolls.
>
> Evan's typical MO is to take a single example and convert it into a grossly
> inflammatory statement.  Whether it is intentional or not is irrelevant, but
> it usually ends up with incensing people just like you.
>
> This is why he's banned nearly everywhere he goes.
>
> -J
>

Yes, in fact the only problem right now that I have had is precisely
with SAX, and it _only_ happens if you happen to install a SAX.pm
module _before_ you tried to install it via dpkg. So all you have to
do to fix it is:

1) aptitude purge whatever modules have not completed the
post-processing scripts.
2) Eliminate the CPAN or manually installed version of SAX
3) aptitude install the modules in (1)

The error that dpkg raises clearly fails when registering the moudles
saying something like "maybe there is another version of SAX installed
on your system", so it should have been obvious for the OP to realize
what was going on.

I second you in the fact that is an unnecessary flame. A simple "hey
guys has anyone had problems with SAX in Debian?" would have sufficed.

In my experience Perl XML modules in general tended to be problematic
in different environments in the past mainly due to encoding issues in
the tests, although this has reduced dramatically in the past few
years (IMO) since the default mainstream Linux and Windows locales are
now utf.

I think that maybe people expect Perl stuff to work like binary
distros but they are not. Honestly, I would second a motion to remove
binary Perl modules altogether from distros and use CPAN for
installation.

Best,
Alejandro

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alejandro.imass at gmail

Oct 28, 2009, 9:49 AM

Post #31 of 38 (720 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Evan Carroll <lists[at]evancarroll.com> wrote:
>> Please don't feed the trolls.
>
> Point well taken, good one, mature.
>

[...]


This is already ___way___ OT from Catalyst. IMO There should be no
binary distros of Perl period. But in any case this list is about
Catalyst not CPAN or Perl in Debian. Let's end it here - pretty
please!

Best,
Alejandro Imass

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jlee+catalyst at pangeamedia

Oct 28, 2009, 10:15 AM

Post #32 of 38 (719 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

Paul Makepeace wrote:
> I recently have completely tossed using Debian's perl packages
> because, while I do love Debian and all its package awesomeness, there
> simply wasn't the package lib*-perl support in stable/lenny and even
> testing/squeeze didn't have all the goods needed for a (what I think
> is) fairly regular Catalyst install.

++ here. I had to build a lot of missing modules, or upgrade modules,
that we wanted / needed. I actually didn't mind the headaches of
chasing down dependencies when building my own packages using
dh-make-perl, because it made it so much simpler system-side to
distribute libraries (with dependencies!) with apt-get installs.

The roadblock came when the packaged perl libraries needed to be
upgraded in a manner inconsistent with the platform. For example,
running perl 5.8.8 in an Ubuntu LTS installation, when you wanted
features found in perl 5.10.0. When I started getting blocked on
upgrades due to conflicts with, say, perl-base and perl-modules, or
requirements for libperl5.10, I scrapped it and went with a source-built
perl and CPAN. I even went through the process of creating updated
perl, perl-base, and perl-module packages based on 5.10, but eventually,
systems dependencies on the old version catch up to you.

> So my question then is: given you've presumably done this, which of
> your quoted solutions do you like best? I tried dh-make-perl many
> moons ago and gave up due to annoyances around following dependencies.
> Maybe CPP::Dist::Deb or something else solves that.

I didn't give CPP a try, but I had a lot of experience with
dh-make-perl. I found that it gave you a good start, but you have to be
anal about creating packages for dependencies and setting descriptions.

> I'm hoping local::lib + cpan + git solves this but curious how
> Debian-integrated solutions work too.

I'd be curious to see if this works well for folks too! I'm especially
interested in folks who do this with a perl installed to a separate
location, e.g. /usr/local/bin/perl. I worry about things like C library
dependencies (ImageMagick comes to mind).


- John


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alexander.hartmaier at t-systems

Oct 28, 2009, 10:37 AM

Post #33 of 38 (719 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

Is building a package for every perl module (not only cpan, private too)
really of help and not just a waste of time?

I'm using debian as server os since version 3 for running apps using POE
and webapps using Embperl and Catalyst and never managed to break it.
And yes I update almost every module by a script using cpanplus
excluding just some like mod_perl and Net::SNMP regularly.

--
best regards, Alex

Am Mittwoch, den 28.10.2009, 18:15 +0100 schrieb John Lee:
> Paul Makepeace wrote:
> > I recently have completely tossed using Debian's perl packages
> > because, while I do love Debian and all its package awesomeness, there
> > simply wasn't the package lib*-perl support in stable/lenny and even
> > testing/squeeze didn't have all the goods needed for a (what I think
> > is) fairly regular Catalyst install.
>
> ++ here. I had to build a lot of missing modules, or upgrade modules,
> that we wanted / needed. I actually didn't mind the headaches of
> chasing down dependencies when building my own packages using
> dh-make-perl, because it made it so much simpler system-side to
> distribute libraries (with dependencies!) with apt-get installs.
>
> The roadblock came when the packaged perl libraries needed to be
> upgraded in a manner inconsistent with the platform. For example,
> running perl 5.8.8 in an Ubuntu LTS installation, when you wanted
> features found in perl 5.10.0. When I started getting blocked on
> upgrades due to conflicts with, say, perl-base and perl-modules, or
> requirements for libperl5.10, I scrapped it and went with a source-built
> perl and CPAN. I even went through the process of creating updated
> perl, perl-base, and perl-module packages based on 5.10, but eventually,
> systems dependencies on the old version catch up to you.
>
> > So my question then is: given you've presumably done this, which of
> > your quoted solutions do you like best? I tried dh-make-perl many
> > moons ago and gave up due to annoyances around following dependencies.
> > Maybe CPP::Dist::Deb or something else solves that.
>
> I didn't give CPP a try, but I had a lot of experience with
> dh-make-perl. I found that it gave you a good start, but you have to be
> anal about creating packages for dependencies and setting descriptions.
>
> > I'm hoping local::lib + cpan + git solves this but curious how
> > Debian-integrated solutions work too.
>
> I'd be curious to see if this works well for folks too! I'm especially
> interested in folks who do this with a perl installed to a separate
> location, e.g. /usr/local/bin/perl. I worry about things like C library
> dependencies (ImageMagick comes to mind).
>
>
> - John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List: Catalyst[at]lists.scsys.co.uk
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> Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/


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jlee+catalyst at pangeamedia

Oct 28, 2009, 10:47 AM

Post #34 of 38 (720 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

Alexander Hartmaier wrote:
> Is building a package for every perl module (not only cpan, private too)
> really of help and not just a waste of time?

I think it's a help once you exceed about twenty servers or so. YMMV


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amesdaq at websense

Oct 28, 2009, 11:09 AM

Post #35 of 38 (720 views)
Permalink
RE: Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

I agree. You will only really feel the pain once there are several servers (or several people managing servers) not counting a dev server. Plus it also deals with scenarios where your software is built using some version of a perl module and your next release of the software is using the newer version of the module with major changes and not much support for backward compatibility. In this case you could be facing issues during deployment if you have several machines that needed to be manually updated or even worse if you automatically update perl modules on production machines then you could be blowing up your app without even changing a line of code. With all that being said I don’t package all my modules because most of my catalyst apps would be deployed on one server and mostly use private perl libraries developed inhouse so it just doesn’t make sense for me but if I had to deploy to several servers and needed to maintain 99.9999% SLA I would spend the time on it.

Too bad there isn't an cross platform painless elegant solution to this.

Thanks,
------------------------------------------
Ali Mesdaq (CISSP, GIAC-GREM)
Sr. Security Researcher
Websense Security Labs
http://www.WebsenseSecurityLabs.com
------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: John Lee [mailto:jlee+catalyst[at]pangeamedia.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:47 AM
To: The elegant MVC web framework
Subject: Re: [Catalyst] Re: Debian recommendation

Alexander Hartmaier wrote:
> Is building a package for every perl module (not only cpan, private too)
> really of help and not just a waste of time?

I think it's a help once you exceed about twenty servers or so. YMMV


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Protected by Websense Hosted Email Security -- www.websense.com

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bobtfish at bobtfish

Oct 28, 2009, 5:47 PM

Post #36 of 38 (709 views)
Permalink
Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On 27 Oct 2009, at 13:53, Buchan Milne wrote:
> I am prepared to package other Catalyst modules for Mandriva on
> request.

<cheeky type="epic">
Can you package (the latest version of) every Catalyst module in my
CPAN directory which isn't marked as DEPRECATED please?
</cheeky>

Cheers
t0m


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bogdan at sinapticode

Oct 29, 2009, 8:23 AM

Post #37 of 38 (679 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Alexander Hartmaier
<alexander.hartmaier[at]t-systems.at> wrote:
> Is building a package for every perl module (not only cpan, private too)
> really of help and not just a waste of time?

If you add them to the Debian repo you'll be the hero of all the other
users of said modules under Debian , including me :)
This chat should -really- be held on #debian-perl on irc.debian.org

Thanks,
--
Bogdan Lucaciu
http://www.sinapticode.com

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bobtfish at bobtfish

Oct 29, 2009, 11:12 AM

Post #38 of 38 (678 views)
Permalink
Re: Re: Debian recommendation [In reply to]

On 29 Oct 2009, at 15:23, Bogdan Lucaciu wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Alexander Hartmaier
> <alexander.hartmaier[at]t-systems.at> wrote:
>> Is building a package for every perl module (not only cpan, private
>> too)
>> really of help and not just a waste of time?
>
> If you add them to the Debian repo you'll be the hero of all the other
> users of said modules under Debian , including me :)
> This chat should -really- be held on #debian-perl on irc.debian.org

Getting the current set of debian modules updated is underway right now.

mst++ # Getting the copyrights sorted out for Debian to be happy
jawnsy++ # Doing all the packaging work.

After that, there is a plan to un-bundle them, and add additional
packages, but one step at a time...

Either way, that situation _is_ being sorted out :)

Cheers
t0m


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