bric at flight
Jul 20, 2011, 7:24 AM
Post #16 of 28
On July 20, 2011 at 9:07 AM Zdravko Balorda <zdravko.balorda [at] siix> wrote:
Re: 8 months later - not even on 1st base
[In reply to]
> Tank you, Andrew, for a long critics. :) Well deserved.
> The thing is that everybody wants "everything for dummies"... never mind
> if it's quantum mechanics, I want to know now, immediately...
If I were an "I want to know now, immediately" guy, I wouldn't be pursuing a
project over the course of several months, and, in spite of failures to make it
work, maintain enough hope and persistence to appeal to the user group "8 months
> > When you teach someone you've got his attention for at least an hour or two,
> so you can develop around everything you need. If you want to put it in a form
> some web page, well, it's possible, I am sure. I draw while I talk to
> somebody, starting
> from internet in general being "a cloud", pointing to our site at hand, its
> tree structure,
I don't need a diagram of the cloud and servers. I have tried and used a
variety of CMSs, including my own kludges. I know that Bricolage (at least) FTPs
the burned product over to the server. I have actually been able to achieve that
much with Bricolage. You stray away from the specific problems i've stated here
before -- why are certain, particular widgets and links missing?
What tree structure are you referring to?
> then showing how Bricolage connects to it from behind the scenes, having flat
> archive, user> workspace and desks, ending up with check out, check in,
> publish, being an ever lasting
> circle, on which a user will ride 90% od the time.
You mean an endless (feedback) loop? Hardly. From the little I know about
Bricolage in particular, and CMS in general, there is an end product. The end
product itself does not feed back into the loop. (Perhaps only in the sense of
re-fueling the developers'/designers' creative imagination, to go back and
tweak/enhance) So your analogy with "everlasting circle" is, at best, sloppy.
> > To set up all this, it becomes clear why one wants workflows, site context,
> > output channels
> and all other components making Bricolage so difficult for a beginner to
> And here, I didn't even start talking about DOM and templating.
The statement "it becomes clear why one wants workflows, site context, output
channels" does not help me. It hasn't completely become clear how these elements
fit together, although there's some progress on my part. Leveraging David
Wheeler's assertion that this user group is very helpful, I challenge you to not
reply at all if you are not helping. You seem to be taking the time to
philosophize about why you cannot help. And are not making any effort to help.
Other than repeat the generalities already stated here -- that Bricolage is
superpowerful but complex and difficult. And it needs visual diagrams. You can
draw diagrams and have done so successfully for your Bricolage pupils. But you
need to be talking/teaching out loud in order to draw these diagrams. (This last
part *IS* new information, granted)
> > I'm afraid I don't have any quicker fix. It's the CMS business in general
> > and than
> how Bricolage or Joomla, for that matter, fits into this.
You haven't even begun a slow "fix". Sorry. "CMS business in general"... that
REALLY addresses my question about specific missing widgets, zeroing in, right
> In teaching users I am seriously considering having a regular monthly
> workshops, especially
> since my Bricolage setup is getting ever more complex and I can't possibly
> things to users via email or phone.
And above you're discrediting this very medium -- the mailing list, as a viable
way to help with Bricolage.
> Regards, Zdravko
> Bric wrote:
> > On July 20, 2011 at 7:02 AM Zdravko Balorda <zdravko.balorda [at] siix>
> > wrote:
> >> I'd like to say that Bricolage can't be approached no step-by-step
> >> basis. Bricolage is based on a concept. Quite complex, too, but offering
> >> a lot. When teaching a new user, I always end up with a drawing of what
> >> Bricolage is, and users always grab it at the end and take it with them. :)
> >> Unfortunately, concepts tend to be hard to describe and write down.
> >> They are much easier to teach and explain.
> > I am sorry, Zdravko -- but your dichotomy "describe and write down" versus
> > "teach and explain" is really not a dichotomy. I don't mean to nitpick here,
> > but
> > they are not opposing notions; they overlap semantically: teaching often
> > involves writing things down and describing, etc...