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UDP support for apache

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yogsothoth78 at gmail

Sep 10, 2007, 3:21 PM

Post #1 of 12 (336 views)
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UDP support for apache

Hi all,

Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol.

I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to make UDP

yogsothoth78 at gmail

Sep 10, 2007, 3:26 PM

Post #2 of 12 (313 views)
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UDP support for apache [In reply to]

Hello,

Sorry previous email was sent before completion.

Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol ?

I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to send/recv UDP sockets,
which makes me think it might support. If so how would i configure ? I
don't see documentation for this.

I don't even know if these questions make sense, because to serve webpages
server may force to do have reliability(so only supports TCP).

thanks,
-GV

dragon at crimson-dragon

Sep 10, 2007, 3:33 PM

Post #3 of 12 (308 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

Yogsothoth GV wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol.
>
>I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to make UDP
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I don't know the answer to your question but I suspect it is very
likely "no". Even though I believe the RFC specifying the HTTP
protocol does mention that it could be implemented on UDP. AFAIK, all
practical implementations of HTTP have been over TCP and not UDP.

HTTP could very well work on UDP but all of the browsers I know about
expect it to function on TCP. So serving it via UDP is pointless if
you have no client that will accept HTTP over UDP.

Dragon

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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xenon at 3dnature

Sep 10, 2007, 3:36 PM

Post #4 of 12 (319 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

Yogsothoth GV wrote:
> Hello,
> Sorry previous email was sent before completion.
> Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol ?

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard of.

Why would you want to?

> I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to send/recv UDP sockets,
> which makes me think it might support. If so how would i configure ? I
> don't see documentation for this.
> I don't even know if these questions make sense, because to serve webpages
> server may force to do have reliability(so only supports TCP).

Just because there is support for UDP in APR doens't mean Apache uses it. APR is the
Apache Portable Runtime:
http://apr.apache.org/

It could be sued for a lot of things other than Apache itself.

> thanks,
> -GV

--
Chris 'Xenon' Hanson | Xenon @ 3D Nature | http://www.3DNature.com/
"I set the wheels in motion, turn up all the machines, activate the programs,
and run behind the scenes. I set the clouds in motion, turn up light and sound,
activate the window, and watch the world go 'round." -Prime Mover, Rush.

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joshua at slive

Sep 10, 2007, 3:50 PM

Post #5 of 12 (312 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

On 9/10/07, Yogsothoth GV <yogsothoth78 [at] gmail> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol.
>
> I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to make UDP

See this month's archives of the dev [at] http list.

Joshua.

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yogsothoth78 at gmail

Sep 10, 2007, 6:26 PM

Post #6 of 12 (318 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

On 9/10/07, Chris 'Xenon' Hanson <xenon [at] 3dnature> wrote:
>
> Yogsothoth GV wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Sorry previous email was sent before completion.
> > Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol
> ?
>
> That's the silliest thing I've ever heard of.

Yes it is silly, only if you think all data that HTML serves requires TCP
like transport semantics. Moreover, HTML specification doesn't specify what
semantics to use for transport, right ?
However, content may impose those semantics.

Say, you are streaming video/audio over HTML like Flash, quicktime. This
doesn't
necessarily require TCP like semantics because delay due to packet
retransmission or HOL blocking is bad (when serving real time data).
However, if you are using a transport protocol like
UDP you might experience small disturbance, which is better than stalled
video/audio. This
is one reason that I can think on top of my head.

> I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to send/recv UDP sockets,
> > which makes me think it might support. If so how would i configure ? I
> > don't see documentation for this.
> > I don't even know if these questions make sense, because to serve
> webpages
> > server may force to do have reliability(so only supports TCP).
>
> Just because there is support for UDP in APR doens't mean Apache uses
> it. APR is the
> Apache Portable Runtime:
> http://apr.apache.org/

It could be sued for a lot of things other than Apache itself.

I completely agree they might be using for totally different purpose. I just
started diving into the
code and trying to make sense of it.

-GV

> > thanks,
> > -GV
>
>
> --
> Chris 'Xenon' Hanson | Xenon @ 3D Nature | http://www.3DNature.com/
> "I set the wheels in motion, turn up all the machines, activate the
> programs,
> and run behind the scenes. I set the clouds in motion, turn up light
> and sound,
> activate the window, and watch the world go 'round." -Prime Mover,
> Rush.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

yogsothoth78 at gmail

Sep 10, 2007, 6:27 PM

Post #7 of 12 (303 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

On 9/10/07, Joshua Slive <joshua [at] slive> wrote:
>
> On 9/10/07, Yogsothoth GV <yogsothoth78 [at] gmail> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport
> protocol.
> >
> > I see some code in srclib/apr/network_io/unix to make UDP
>
> See this month's archives of the dev [at] http list.
>
> Joshua.

Thanks Joshua. Seems like they don't have support for it.

-GV

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dragon at crimson-dragon

Sep 10, 2007, 6:36 PM

Post #8 of 12 (312 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

On Mon, September 10, 2007 18:26, Yogsothoth GV wrote:
> On 9/10/07, Chris 'Xenon' Hanson <xenon [at] 3dnature> wrote:
>>
>> Yogsothoth GV wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> > Sorry previous email was sent before completion.
>> > Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport
>> protocol
>> ?
>>
>> That's the silliest thing I've ever heard of.
>
>
> Yes it is silly, only if you think all data that HTML serves requires TCP
> like transport semantics. Moreover, HTML specification doesn't specify
> what
> semantics to use for transport, right ?
> However, content may impose those semantics.

Actually, the fact that nobody has implemented HTTP over UDP puts such a
constraint on you. Just because the RFC allows for it does not mean that
somebody has actually implemented it on both the server and client side.

> | > Why would you want to?
> Say, you are streaming video/audio over HTML like Flash, quicktime. This
> doesn't
> necessarily require TCP like semantics because delay due to packet
> retransmission or HOL blocking is bad (when serving real time data).
> However, if you are using a transport protocol like
> UDP you might experience small disturbance, which is better than stalled
> video/audio. This
> is one reason that I can think on top of my head.

I am no expert here, but there are probably much better ways to do this
using more recent and more sophisticated protocols.

When I was working for a company that shall not be named that was working
on edge routing solutions, one of the big things was QOS and priority
scheduling of "real-time" or streaming data. Unfortunately, my knowledge
here is barely superficial as I never had to get deep into the mechanics
of that to write my test software (which ran functional testing of various
high-speed ATM optical network interfaces).

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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margol at beamartyr

Sep 11, 2007, 2:47 AM

Post #9 of 12 (295 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

Yogsothoth GV wrote:
>
>
> On 9/10/07, *Joshua Slive* <joshua [at] slive <mailto:joshua [at] slive>> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Joshua. Seems like they don't have support for it.
>
> -GV
>

To clarify some issues here:
1) There is *unofficial*, *unmaintained* support for UDP for
unix/prefork systems using the patches submitted on the dev list last
week. I highly doubt that those patches will make it into an official
release before 2.6 or 3.0, but I've personally used them already, and it
would be great if someone else with a need for UDP gave it a try and
give feedback. I'd be happy to help you apply and compile (contact me
off-list if you want to take me up on the offer)
2) There are several things which certainly justify the use of HTTP over
UDP. First being streaming content, as Yogsothoth pointed out. A
second being protocols other than HTTP (which Apache 2.0 was
intentionally designed to support). I personally have a DNS protocol
module, which definitely needs UDP to work with clients out-of-the-box
3) Bear in mind that Dragon is still correct in that you need to make
sure that your client supports UDP for this to really be useful; most,
if not all, probably don't (but it's worth looking - it certainly makes
sense for streaming media players to have)

Issac

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xenon at 3dnature

Sep 11, 2007, 10:08 AM

Post #10 of 12 (301 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

Yogsothoth GV wrote:
> | > Why would you want to?
> Say, you are streaming video/audio over HTML like Flash, quicktime.
> This doesn't
> necessarily require TCP like semantics because delay due to packet
> retransmission or HOL blocking is bad (when serving real time data).
> However, if you are using a transport protocol like
> UDP you might experience small disturbance, which is better than
> stalled video/audio. This
> is one reason that I can think on top of my head.

Yes, but that's why protocols like RTSP were invented. HTTP's design really does imply
it runs over a sessioned and reliable transport. And your original question _was_:

>Can I configure Apache to serve webpages using UDP as transport protocol.

Webpages and UDP don't make any sense.

As Issac Goldstand points out in his reply, Apache 2.0 could support protocols other
than HTTP, so there's that, but for HTTP there's just no logic in using anything but TCP.

> -GV

--
Chris 'Xenon' Hanson | Xenon @ 3D Nature | http://www.3DNature.com/
"I set the wheels in motion, turn up all the machines, activate the programs,
and run behind the scenes. I set the clouds in motion, turn up light and sound,
activate the window, and watch the world go 'round." -Prime Mover, Rush.

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margol at beamartyr

Sep 11, 2007, 11:19 AM

Post #11 of 12 (313 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

Chris 'Xenon' Hanson wrote:
> Yogsothoth GV wrote:
>> | > Why would you want to?
>> Say, you are streaming video/audio over HTML like Flash, quicktime.
>> This doesn't
>> necessarily require TCP like semantics because delay due to packet
>> retransmission or HOL blocking is bad (when serving real time data).
>> However, if you are using a transport protocol like
>> UDP you might experience small disturbance, which is better than
>> stalled video/audio. This
>> is one reason that I can think on top of my head.
>
> Yes, but that's why protocols like RTSP were invented.
Playing the devil's advocate here:

On the one hand, many firewalls block RSTP; on the other hand I don't
know that any streaming media clients do UDP with anything other than
RSTP, so while streaming over HTTP-UDP to bypass firewalls makes sense,
it's pretty uncommon, and not sure how much support clients will have.
Of course, it might make sense to make an RSTP protocol module for
Apache :-)

Issac

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yogsothoth78 at gmail

Sep 12, 2007, 4:11 PM

Post #12 of 12 (301 views)
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Re: UDP support for apache [In reply to]

On 9/11/07, Issac Goldstand <margol [at] beamartyr> wrote:
>
> Chris 'Xenon' Hanson wrote:
> > Yogsothoth GV wrote:
> >> | > Why would you want to?
> >> Say, you are streaming video/audio over HTML like Flash, quicktime.
> >> This doesn't
> >> necessarily require TCP like semantics because delay due to packet
> >> retransmission or HOL blocking is bad (when serving real time data).
> >> However, if you are using a transport protocol like
> >> UDP you might experience small disturbance, which is better than
> >> stalled video/audio. This
> >> is one reason that I can think on top of my head.
> >
> > Yes, but that's why protocols like RTSP were invented.

I don't want to use RTSP or other streaming protocols(which is not on HTTP),

because I am trying to make a case that streaming over HTTP can be useful.
This is purely for experimental basis. Sorry, I should have made it clear
before.

Playing the devil's advocate here:
>
> On the one hand, many firewalls block RSTP; on the other hand I don't
> know that any streaming media clients do UDP with anything other than
> RSTP, so while streaming over HTTP-UDP to bypass firewalls makes sense,

This is exactly one of the reason why I want to experiment. Also using RTSP
requires maintaining another server, which is not necessarily required if
we can plug-in custom protocols into apache. This with other ideas I have
for custom protocols,
I want to see If I can provide better QoS to Users.

it's pretty uncommon, and not sure how much support clients will have.
> Of course, it might make sense to make an RSTP protocol module for
> Apache :-)
>
> Issac

Yes, I am aware that clients doesn't support Streaming video - HTTP-UDP for
streaming. I will
start with some simple benchmarks and If it is benefical, I might modify
a client to do that.

Issac,
I would like to patch apache with UDP. Please send me patches, will apply
and
email you if I run to issues.

thanks,
-GV

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