Just wanted to post something in memory of those who died in Spain last week. We really do live in a world with lots of sick people ...

My comiserations go out to the family and friends of those who died.

Cheers

Andy (mod)
andy@ultranerds.co.uk

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I too send my condolences to the family and friends of the victims of the terrorist attack in Spain. And to the Spanish people as a whole. Unfortunately the war on terrorism is unwinnable in terms of how the war is being fought and conducted, so this sort of thing will be more the norm over the years and decades to come as the pace accelerates. At least there is a silver lining. Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's Socialist Party captured the election - albeit not a clean majority. And, Zapatero is talking of removing Spanish troops from Iraq on June 30th, 2004.

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Cheers,

Dan
Principal

Virtual Solutions

Yes, run away and hide. Or better yet, hold out your hand to the terrorists, so they can cut it off.

Shameful really that the terrorists won in Spain, at the expense of a lot of innocent blood.

There can be no accommodation with terrorists who proudly state in their tape, as translated, "You love life and we love death."

I should have posted more of a condolence note about the bombing. My baby sister was born in Spain and we still have close family friends in the south.

But I have to agree and sympathize with their view that this will make Spain, and in turn Europe, look weak..."terrorize us, and we'll capitulate."

Spain (and Europe) has a long and bloody history with terrorism, and has been fighting it long before the US got into the game - sometimes applying Draconian methods. The new Spanish leader, Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, promises to keep the battle going. But not as a participant in cleaning up after the illegal war in a US-controlled Iraq. The Spanish Socialist Party is simply keeping its promise to the Spanish people. A promise made quite awhile ago when the previous leader, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, supported the Iraq war against the wishes of the vast majority of Spaniards who were adamantly against it - and still are. But good news, PM Zapatero might maintain the Spanish troops in Iraq if the United Nations assumes control of Iraq from the US; unlikely scenario of course. As history tells us dating back to the Roman Empire, battling and killing insurgents and terrorists of this ilk is a war that cannot and will not be won. Not on the battlefield alone at any rate. This war on terrorism has only spawned a new and larger generation of terrorists, worldwide. A new breed that many experts find more fearsome. And, al Qaeda only scratches the surface. And, there's another group that is a potentially greater threat, and one that avoids media attention at all costs - and has been a bloody thorn in our sides for decades.

As an aside, there does not seem (yet) to be any 'conclusive' evidence that al Qaeda planned and/or executed the train bombing in Madrid. The previous Spanish administration was still indicating that the Basque separatist group, ETA, were responsible - but whether they believed it or not, they were concerned that if the elecorate believed that al Qaeda was responsible, there could be a backlash that could spoil the election for them. But even if it as shown undeniably to be a ETA operation before the election, the election would still have been close with maybe a very slight Populist Party majority. Back in 2003, they were talking about a possible election upset in Spain following Spain's decision to support the war and subsequent US occupation of Iraq. We'll see soon if this is a trend with other elections in the years to come.

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Cheers,

Dan
Principal

Virtual Solutions

We agree, Europe has a rich history. As it relates to terrorism, it has been mostly a history of appeasement.

You can follow that same path and allow the threat to grow, or face it head on. We ignored the thread in the 90s, and paid it.

These terrorists do not seek peaceful coexistence. Those who think they could, or would, are fools.

> We agree, Europe has a rich history. As it relates to terrorism, it has been mostly a history of appeasement.

Nope.

You can kill and incarcerate terrorists until you are blue in the face, but there will will always someone to replace the one you killed or imprisoned. Time old story handed down through the centuries. The best way to fight terrorism is to undermine it by removing their popular grassroots support. Then the terrorists will whither and die - if not, then the people they are fighting for will make sure they do. Otherwise, the war on terrorism is lost.

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Cheers,

Dan
Principal

Virtual Solutions

Hello Dan, Spain has lost many people for nothing and it hurts the world of peace.

They died going to work. They got out of bed. Dressed and prepared for a normal trip to work.
They left their homes and boarded a train to cities they were to work in. They never made it.

I will mourn them as people who deserved to live and enjoy a coffee when they made it to work.

They should have also been able to come home and complain of the days troubles.

People do not deserve to die like this for a political solution for any quasi terrorist party.

Cowards took away their day and the rest of their lives for their shitty political views.





Dan you cannot compare a terrorist with a coward.

Cowards use tools of war on normal people doing their normal life.

Stand up you cowards and put on a uniform so we know who you are.

If you get caught without a uniform you may get shot as a bad guy.

We do not want that. We want you alive to stand trial with a lawyer by your side.

It would not be proper to hang you without a fair trial.

Something you did not consider for your victims or their families.


cornball

Yep, the Palestinians and other Muslims would also agree. This is a debate that will go on long after our deaths as al Qaeda and other similar organizations continue to wage war.

http://www.cnn.com/....splinter/index.html

It's something we will have to come to unwillingly accept as part of our day-to-day lives and normal routine - at least until we address and remedy the root causes of terrorism. As the latter is unlikely (as is evident and as history has the tendency to repeat itself), this could become one of the greatest challenges to mankind as it has global implications that can trigger geopolitical instability on a large scale - especially via a domino effect. For Bush to have called it a Crusade (hopefully not understanding what the Crusades were), set into motion a general sentiment in the Muslim community that this was now a 'holy war' between Christians (and Jews) and the Muslims.

Inspite of this, I (and my girlfriend) have decided to move from the relative safety of Canada to Europe (Netherlands) in the next few years. Although a deserted island somewhere in the South Pacific with no contact with the outside World might be more appealing in my retirement =)

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Cheers,

Dan
Principal

Virtual Solutions

Hello Dan, I know what I said above.

The people who blew up the trains in spain did so
without a "war" being present.

If you can tell me of a foreign country that declared hostilities
with Spain prior or after the act.

Basically we are down to criminals or cowards who use war type
equipment and tools against normal people going to work.


You have to draw a line in the sand some where.

Hey If they attacked a military base [ even asleep ] or a military target or
a oil center or a gas pipeline or a political ? or CNN in spain.

They attacked a commuter train with regular people and kids.

They are not military or terrorist commandos.

They used explosives command detonated by cell phones.

They pressed the buttons to set the bombs off.

They are people, they are cowards.

If you want to kill and be there use a knife.

They killed from a safe distance.

Thanks cornball

Agreed, they certainly are cowards. This world makes me so sick, with these kind of people around.

I very rarely watch the news now.

Who heard about that guy getting beaten to death by a huge crowd after that car bomb yesterday? I am not agreeing with what that angry 'mob' did... but if that guy who was killed, did in fact have a role in that car bomb.. then IMO he got what he deserved (that sounds really harsh, but the way things are going at the moment..thats how I feel towards this whole 'terrorist' thing).

Cheers

Andy

Dan, How do you undermine the popular grassroots support for terrorism? How do you do this when goals of terrorist groups are at cross purposes? ie: ETA would like to have a basque homeland carved out of parts f spain and france. al Qaeda would like to return all of Spain to muslim rule as it was several hundred years ago. How is this different and/or more effective that the European appeasement of Hitler in the 30's? Or was that an effective strategy?
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Rob

SW Montana's Online Community
Modular Model Railroading

What the terrorists are doing is terrible! I don't understand how they can do a thing like that?!

But the al Qaeda terrorists are ..hating America and all the USA is. And at some point, I can understand them. They have no reason to kill innocent people, and no americans neither, but look at WWII, it wasn't the rebels that got shot afterwards. It was the one leading the raid through the world. The ones sneaking up on a country, entering it, taking it, without good reasons, and killing innocent people for what?

Just a thought from me. The USA government are taking actions that are not necessary. Entering Iraq without proper reasons(Oil maybe?), threatening North-Korea with war by calling them dangerous.

Terrorists I have no pitty for, but there are someone who want to control this world. And my guess it's not the al Qaeda cavemen.

perlman